BP Substitutes

[Brittany1]

What are some of the BP substitutes you have used, and what are they made of? Aren't they generally more inefficient than genuine BP?

 

[roundball]

What are some of the BP substitutes you have used, and what are they made of? Aren't they generally more inefficient than genuine BP?

This probably needs to go into the 'accessories' category...I used Hodgdon's Pyrodex in percussions during the early years when I was getting started and overall it performed well for me...as far as it being more or less efficient than real BP, not sure by what measurement that would be guaged.

However, I can say that since switching to flintlocks and Goex, Goex is easier to ignite apparently due to it's lower igniton temperature and I've never had an ignition failure with it like I occasionally had with Pyrodex if I had a marginal / cooler cap or something.

I'll compare Goex to Pyrodex this way...as soon as I becames aware of how fast, clean, and accurate Goex was, I rezeroed all my percussions with it and stopped using Pyrodex.

 

[riarcher]

Tried some "Clean Shot Powder" one time. "Contains no Sulfer" - not knowing much about why. Tried this in a caplock and for reloading in my demascus guns. Stuff was not "tickling my fancy!" At 18.95 per pound, I thought it was like self cleaning (should of been!). This stuff left a fouling like cement in my barrels. Still have about 1/2 a pound left that'll be discarded someday.

 

[cayugad]

What are some of the BP substitutes you have used, and what are they made of? Aren't they generally more inefficient than genuine BP?

I do not know if I would consider them more inefficient the genuine BP. Many of the substitutes have more power then black powder. They burn hotter, and produce much less fowling. They are also easier to clean out of the barrel in most cases. These might not be the best choice for a flintlock because of the higher ignition point some of them have, but in the sidelocks and inline rifles they are an excellent choice.

Triple Se7en Powder for instance. I shoot this in my sidelocks and inlines. It will clean up with water. Triple Se7en FFg is 15% stronger approximately then Goex Black Powder FFg. It does not seem to be too water sensative, hunting with it in damp and wet weather have never caused me any problems wiht my rifles. The big draw back with this powder is cost compared to Black Powder and in some cases when shot in the rifles a crud ring develop and you must swab the barrel clean every so often to remove it. Simple water is all that is needed to clean this powder out of the rifle. I have a couple rifles that shoot their best with this powder.

Clean Shot FFg is another (or was ) common powder. It is now called American Pioneer Powder . It is a sugar based powder. Some people claim it has problems when used in wet conditions. I personally have sat outside when it was snowing, shooting of numerous shots and never saw the moisture as a problem. Of course I did not walk out and sit for four hours in this environment and then have to depend on ignition. APP or Clean Shot is about equal in strength to Black Powder. The FFg grade is very course. I would suggest the FFFg grade of this to anyone wanting to shoot it. I shot off over half a pound of the stuff yesterday and the accuracy was outstanding. I shot one inline rifle over 25 times and had to swab three or four times. This was when I was changing bullet types. One other time I swabbed I think more out of general habit then anything else.

Goex Pinnacle is a new powder just out. It is made through a combined effort of American Pioneer Powder Company and Goex. It was claimed that it will fire in flintlocks... Ok it will, but not to my satisfaction. To many delays. Now in the sidelocks and inline rifles this stuff really shines. I shot 12 sabots in an inline and never swabbed the barrel. This was impossible using the other powders. The accuracy was outstanding and ignition was perfect all the time with a #11 cap system. In the sidelock rifles I shot this powder in, accuracy was outstanding. I have no way to test this but considered it equal in strength to Black powder. Fowling for me with this powder was not a problem.

Pyrodex RS, Select, and P class powders have been around for a long time. The powder comes in different grades like Black powder and is about equal in strength according to grade. I personally like the Pyrodex P (Pistol powder) or the RS to shoot. It will not shoot in flintlocks unless you duplex the loads which as long as I can get black powder I refuse to do, but in sidelocks and inlines this stuff just plain works. The fowling is not the best. Like black powder, it has a bad fowling to it, but I shot this stuff for years when I was a younger fellow because black powder got hard to come by in my area for a while. Good stuff for hunting in wet weather, and has been used by many hunters and target shooters over the years. Fowling and clean up is the main draw back of this powder.

One of the other powders that has entered the market which I have not been able to test is called Black Mag3. From all I have read on this powder it sure looks like an interesting powder....

 

[Runner]

777 does not draw moisture bad. The fouling after you burn it is worse than real black fouling for drawing moisture. It is not a dependable powder in a sidelock if you need a second shot. It is only dependable if you are shooting from a clean gun. One of the members in another forum burned the same amount of each on steel plates and set them out to watch what happened. The 777 fouling drew visable droplets of water. I then took my 36 to the lake farm and hunted all day with it. The first couple of shots were ok and then things started downhill. The last load required using a q-tip to get the water/sludge out of the channel and a few grains of powder under the nipple to set it off at all. A cap never would have ignited it. Black behaves basically the same way in damp weather, but is much easier to ignite. I am past the farther faster years, and I value dependable ignition. 777 is no longer used here, but I shoot only side lock guns. 777 is interesting in inlines if you make sure the breechplug threads are coated with anti-sieze. It is useless in a flinter.

 

[cayugad]

Runner I agree it is worthless in a flinter although some of the more modern flinters like the T/C Firestorm and the Traditions PA Pellet run a duplex load of 15-20 grains of Goex first and then the Triple Se7en and report excellent results with it. Some people even shoot the Triple Se7en pellets that way.

I hunted with the Triple Se7en for a couple years with a .54 caliber sidelock. I can personally say I never experienced any problems with it. Although I seldom needed a second shot. In fact I have one rifle that loaded with 80 grains of T-7 will shoot fantastic groups.. all day long.

On the range, I can sit and shoot Triple Se7en in a sidelock for many shots and never need to swab. In the inline rifles that is a little different matter of course.

I personally shoot Goex now for about 99% of my stuff but it is because of the flinters I shoot most, and the cost factors. I always had real good luck with Triple Se7en and never saw the problems you are discussing. This is one powder I usually recommed to people that can not or do not want to get black powder.

 

[Runner]

That is why it is important to get info from all over on the various powders. It was a dry day here with the humidity staying around 60 percent. Tomorrow will be a little better, but then it is supposed to start raining. I once fired a full 30 rounds of target, paused to eat a burger, and then the betting shots started. None of the guns would shoot without being cleaned out, and that was using Goex! 777 is not the only powder with this problem by far. My flinter has to be cleaned after every shot if you want it to go off 4 hours later when hunting at the lake farm,

The Duplex flinter loads defeat the purpose of the 777. It is a farther faster powder. You will not find a lot of flinters loaded for farther and faster. I understand there are some people out there using a black prime to set off pellets under plastic in their "flintlocks". I had a guy bragging about 200 yard powerbelt groups with a flint long rifle at the old mines gathering. If you don't get the non-corrosive easy cleaning benefit, 777 has nothing to offer the majority of flintlock shooters.

Where black is hard to get, a sub must be used. I am hoping that Pinnacle will turn out to be the answer for those folks. Where black can be bought, it is still top dog in my opinion. I will admit that my best groups ever were shot with Pyrodex P, but it has so much going against it that it isn't much of a choice. I keep hoping for a sub that is safe and goes off well enough for the flinters to use, but haven't found it yet.

 

[bezoar]

I doubt you will ever find a bp substitute that gives the same performance in a flintlock that real black powder does. I say that because the modern substitutes are using very very little sulfur, if any sulfur at all. and we all know that the more sulfur in bp the lower the ignition temperature needed to set it off.
True less sulfur is good as far as corrosion in the barrel goes, but the only thing that will give you enough temperature to ignite the sub every time is a percussion cap or a big hank of burning slow match shoved into a pile of it. And until the inline companies make a flintlock inline rifle, the powder companies will not be interested in helping flintlocks out at all.
SO the only alternative to buying commercial black powder is making it yourself and we dont like going to jail when the atf raids the neighborhood so we have no real choice but to duplex.

 

[Landngroove]

My experiance with black powder subs: Clear Shot, formerly made by Goex, no longer made, Clear Shot left a crusty fowling in the barrel, did not ignite well in a flinter, and IMHO was not worth the price. Pyrodex: I used Pyrodex for a few years, left a fowling in the barrel, smells bad when cleaning, would not ignite in a flinter, without a kicker charge of real BP. (duplex load). I saw no real advantage of using Pyrodex over real BP. American Pioneer Powder: Formerly known as Clean Shot, until lawsuit brought by Hodgen. Leaves much less fowling in the barrel, than Pyrodex, or BP. I find it to be accurate. Seems to have less recoil, and muzzleblast than real BP, or Pyrodex. (less velocity?) I don't have a Chrony, so this remains a mystery to me. Cleans up easily. Unreliable in a flinter, needs kicker charge. Works well in percussion sidelocks, and in-lines. Now, real BP: It does fowl the barrel, but using FFFG reduces this. Works great in flinters, positive ignition. Is accurate. Cleans up O.K. with warm soapy water, and dish soap. I only use real BP in my flinters. I am waiting to try Pinnacle, and Black Mag. In my area these will not be available until July or August. My conclusion: I use A.P.P. FFFG, in my percussion sidelocks. A.P.P. FFG in my in-lines, and Goex BP FFFG in my flinters.

 

[Slamfire]

I haven't tried the APP, because all I can find is the sticks. If I run across some loose, I'll try it in my .36. :front:

 

[Charles/NM]

I have used Pyrodex since it first came out. It solved a severe fouling problem I was having with early Gearhart-Owen (GOEX?)BP. At the time I used Crisco and later the old brown T/C Bore Butter in the tub for lube. Two shots and the bore was terminally fouled. Without a good scrubing I couldn't get a Maxi Ball or patched RB down the barrel. Pyrodex RS and T/C Natural Lube 1000 Plus Bore Butter in the yellow tube was a wonderful solution. Could and still can shoot all day without cleaning or wiping between shots. I had bad luck with green tube Bore Butter. I'm not sure they still make the green tube stuff. I get better accuracy with Pyrodex Select but regular RS is good enough for my needs. BTW, Pyrodex has gone thru several formulation changes since it came out. The early and current Pyro don't look even close to the same. If you used Pyro in it's early days and didn't like it you might be well served to try the new product. I've never had a failure to fire in over 30 years of using Pyrodex in a .50 caliber T/C Hawken. Not once.
I tried 777 and found it caused my percussion nipple threads to stick real bad. Had to resort to using Never Seize on the threads. The reason I tried 777 in the first place was because my hunting companion didn't like it seizing the threads of his breech plug in an in-line Savage ML and gave me his remining supply of it. Used it to fertilize flowers.

 

[graybeard]

Like almost everyone, I've used Pyrodex, but when I went to flintlock had to start using Goex in the rock locks. Black Mag 3 is advertised to work in flintlocks, but it doesn't, at least not very well. However, in caplocks it works fine, seems to be accurate, and cleans up with a couple of swipes of the cleaning rod, as advertised. Pricey, though. I doubt I'll buy any more. graybeard :m2c:

 

[peter]

When I got my first muzzle loader, a flintlock, I couldn't get the darn thing to go boom. Then I switched from Clean Shot to black powder and it goes boom every time. My GPR doesn't care, it works with any powder. My 1861 Springfield is not accurate with Clean Shot, shoots good with ffg goex, and breaks clay pigeons at 100 yrds with fffg of Goex.

 

[Rat]

My experience with going over to the DARK SIDE and trying 777 was that it shot 2.5" groups in my Remington Navy, with some wierd right-to-left stringing, whereas this gun shoots a nice round 1.5" group (at 20 yards) with ffg Swiss.

In my 1861, the 777 produced 8+" groups at 75 yards with 777, whereas with fffg Goex it shoots into 2.21" at 75 yards and 2.25" at over 100 yards. In my 1861, 100 grains of fffg Goex was/is noticeably hotter than 100 grains of pistol-grade 777.

I have a little .58 carbine that I have been shooting for aobut 25+ years, with never a miss fire, and only a hangfire or two with pyrodex. My first miss-fire with this gun, was recently when I was trying 777 in it, the '61, the Remington Navy and my 1860 Colt. By the way, 777 gave me my first chain-fire in the Colt, which I have been shooting for about 20 years.

I will never stray from real BP again, even if I have to buy it by the case. I think 777 would be more useful in a BP cartridge gun.

My flinters of course have never tasted anything excecpt real black powder.

By the way, Swiss powder will burn about as clean as any of the subs, but will be 100% reliable in any gun. Best of both worlds.

Rat

 

[Old Charlie]

I would love to try some of that Swiss power and I will if I ever find it where I can buy a one pound can. But as expenseve as it is I guess I will stick with Goex. I have some 777 I shoot in a cap gun I have ,but when it it gone it just Goex.
Old Charlie

 

[Runner]

3f 777 is much hotter then 3f Goex. I destroyed a stock when I was testing it. I had 120 grains under a 385 Hornady when one of the wedge plates was pulled out of the wood, the wood splintered, and the wedge pulled up inside the stock forcing it apart and cracking the ramrod channel almost full length. I used a service load of 100 grains of P under the same bullet for years in the same gun with no problems at all. The 120 grain load would not have had to have damaged the gun. The recoil in the straight stocked gun was memorable, for days! I was doing simple tests with the powder, not trying to work up a load that hot. The other issue with the Hawken was that the rear sight would not go down far enough to get the point of impact on target at 35 yards. Do not let anyone tell you Goex is anywhere near as hot as 3f 777. I have been told that some of the batches of 3f Swiss approaches the same power level that the 777 produces. Pyrodex and Goex are an easy 15 to 20 percent behind 777 in the energy produced. Lots of folks that shoot 3f or p normally have gone to 2f with the 777 since it is so hot.