brass cracking on me

[oldarmy]

I am having a heck of a time with brass furniture cracking on me.
I have had to replace brass parts on both of my projects.
They seem to be the same parts and it's so annoying, not to mention exensive.
Butt plates and trigger guards.
I anneal them red hot either air cool or water cool, but when I bend them thay crack.
Wax cast, sand cast doens't seem to matter. I have bought the parts from TOW and J Garner. When I call them up, they tell me you don't have to anneal and don't bend them too much...
They look bronezy to me..
Where can I find "real brass parts"???
regards

 

Oldarmy, I have had the same expeience in the past. It seems when I annealed the sand cast brass it became very brittle and grainy. The cell structure becomes something else? I have found that bending the brass to shape of stock presents no problems as cast. It will work harden if you move it back and forth too much though.

 

[Stophel]

The investment cast "bronze" parts are simply made out of the wrong material. It is hard, springy, and not very malleable. You can anneal it till you're blue in the face. It won't matter. It will only bend so far (and not much at that) and that's it.

Now, with sand cast parts, which are made of real brass, there is another problem. Just a few days ago, I had a sand cast triggerguard that was cracking on me. Even when simply bending it easily in my hands, the surface would crack. I THOUGHT I could make it all the way through the shaping without it breaking on me, but at the very end, I had to give it just a little bit more of a bend and with my hands, I broke it plumb in two. (annealing made no difference...I annealed it several times).

I have another of the same guard that I can bend easily without cracking. I wonder if perhaps the problem lies in how it was cast. Metal too hot or too cold or something when it was poured. Normally, I don't have cracking problems with sand cast brass. From now on, before beginning the file work, I'm taking the guard and giving it a few good bends with my hands to see if it is going to crack on me before I put several hours of work into[url] it...again[/url]...

I actually ended up using a guard from Reeves Goehring (which is investment cast REAL brass). These are always nicely cast, and you can bend and beat the manure out of them and they won't crack.

 

[oldarmy]

I have Mr. Reeves Goehring ph# and I am going to call Monday. I ordered replacement parts from TOW, BUT if Reeves has the trigger guard I need I am going to cancel the TOW order

 

[Vaino]

I've dumped the "bronze brass" investment cast parts because of the color, which as this alloy ages, turns to a "pinkish", unflattering hue. A good friend of mine has a LR that I built in 1982 and I ocassionally observe the "ageing" of the "bronze brass" TG and BP and this is what converted me to yellow brass.The TOW sandcast parts are mighty rough but I haven't had any trouble bending them to shape w/o annealing. Perhaps the builders didn't order the right part and the bending is too radical? Also the junctions of the various elements inherent in a TG are difficult places to eliminate trapped air, thereby yielding voids{stress points}. Lately I've been building Bucks County LRs and will order from Reeves Goehring seeing he is so highly esteemed and his parts evidently don't require huge amounts of filing time. Jim Chambers' brass furniture is quality stuff, requiring minimal filing,can be bent easily, but he doesn't offer a wide variety and the cost is a little high. To me, filing a ROUGH sandcast TG so the edges are thin and the facets are well defined and sharp, is one of the most time consuming tasks in building a LR and hopefully Goehring's TGs don't require that much filing time.....Fred

 

The investment cast "bronze" parts are simply made out of the wrong material. It is hard, springy, and not very malleable. You can anneal it till you're blue in the face. It won't matter. It will only bend so far (and not much at that) and that's it.

Now, with sand cast parts, which are made of real brass, there is another problem. Just a few days ago, I had a sand cast triggerguard that was cracking on me. Even when simply bending it easily in my hands, the surface would crack. I THOUGHT I could make it all the way through the shaping without it breaking on me, but at the very end, I had to give it just a little bit more of a bend and with my hands, I broke it plumb in two. (annealing made no difference...I annealed it several times).

I have another of the same guard that I can bend easily without cracking. I wonder if perhaps the problem lies in how it was cast. Metal too hot or too cold or something when it was poured. Normally, I don't have cracking problems with sand cast brass. From now on, before beginning the file work, I'm taking the guard and giving it a few good bends with my hands to see if it is going to crack on me before I put several hours of work into[url] it...again[/url]...

I actually ended up using a guard from Reeves Goehring (which is investment cast REAL brass). These are always nicely cast, and you can bend and beat the manure out of them and they won't crack.

I agree with the Reeves Goehring thing. His stuff is dead soft brass and is totally malleable without having any worries about it cracking. His stuff is top shelf!! :thumbsup:

 

[Hoyt]

I just broke a sand cast trigger guard while trying to bend it a little with my hand. I ordered "one more" just like it and it's got to be bent to work. They told me brass had to be annealed. I said it breaks either way and they agreed..so...
I wanted to try a Goering..but I had the guard inletted and would never match up with another. I thought I'd give one more try and if it breaks, go with Goering and patch holes if necessary.

 

[rich pierce]

It's not that hard to get a trigger guard from Reeves to fit an existing inlet as long as the reach is similar. I've peened them out wider and longer without problems.

 

[Hoyt]

There's a good chance I'm goin to be findin out Rich. I got to bend this guard in about 3 different directions.
I took off a Buck's Co. guard to to get an idea what changing would do and the rear pin tab was much farther back and would have left the existing tab inlet showing..unless I got a longer trigger plate to cover it.

 

[MSzychulda]

Brass and copper are the exact opposite of steel. Where as heating and annealing (slow cool) softens steel, it makes brass and copper hard and brittle. If you quench steel it hardens but softens brass/copper. You must heat the brass to red and then quench in oil or water to soften it. I know some who will do this two or three times. When I am hammering out copper or brass and it starts to become brittle, this is what I do and it works well. I learned this from a good friend who does some metal work with pots and kettles. You must be able to evenly heat the part in a forge, a torch concentrates the heat and allows the outlying areas to cool too much past critical temperature.
Of course if the parts have casting fractures in them or are cheap antomony metals, this won't help. I have been lucky and never had this trouble with the cast parts I have purchased. Good luck!

 

[paulvallandigham]

The fact that you are bending brass in three different directions is part of the problem. You are work hardening the brass.

Heat it red hot, and dowse it in cold water. Do this a couple of time to soften the brass thoroughly. Then after you do the first bend, anneal the brass again. Then do the second bend, and anneal it again. Then do the third and final bend. You can't soften brass too much. But because of impurities, it can harden very quickly with hammering, or working it with any kind of tools. We see this with Brass shell casings all the time.

When in doubt, anneal it again. When its done, and you have polished it some, you can heat it up and let it cool slowly to harden in its final shape. Then do the final polish and no one will know how you did that!

Best wishes.

 

[Vaino]

Have used sand cast brass TGs from a variety of suppliers and bend them w/o red heating and have never had one crack. Of course I've never had to bend them a whole lot because they fit pretty well as rec'd. A couple were warped laterally from cooling stresses, but even these were bent w/o incident. When bending the TG for a fit on the fore end and the wrist, only hand pressure is used and the bending is spread out over a length so stress points aren't created. Lateral bending is more difficult and various wrenches and wood levers are used...Fred

 

[Stophel]

Like I said, I USUALLY don't have problems with sand cast brass parts, BUT, I think sometimes you are going to get one that is just absolutely bound to crack. The one I just fought over was cracking from the very beginning...long before any "work hardening" could occur. Just throw it away and get another...

 

[Flintfan69]

Try bending them while they are at the critical temp.

 

[Hoyt]

I ordered one from Reeves..along with a another buttplate and pc. of flat brass for side plate.
He's going to send me a drawing of another trigger guard just in case this one doesn't work with the inlet I've got started.

 

[Hoyt]

Got my trigger guard replacement today, laid it on the stock, put a little pressure..just mild handling pressure..to get tabs into inlets, gave it a good look and noticed a crack all the way across. It either came that way or cracked before I got a chance to bend it. That's two trigger guards I've bought plus shipping and have nothing. Good thing I went ahead and ordered the one from Reeves Goering.
What really concerns me is a knot in the wrist of my stock.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I think the suggestion by Forrest, above, to do the bending while they are red hot is an excellent one. If you are in a hole, stop digging.

 

[rich pierce]

you are up against it with this build. Better check to see that the bore goes all the way down the barrel. I hope the rest of it goes better.

 

[6mmppc]

Now, with sand cast parts, which are made of real brass, there is another problem. Just a few days ago, I had a sand cast triggerguard that was cracking on me. Even when simply bending it easily in my hands, the surface would crack. I THOUGHT I could make it all the way through the shaping without it breaking on me, but at the very end, I had to give it just a little bit more of a bend and with my hands, I broke it plumb in two. (annealing made no difference...I annealed it several times).

Chris,
I agree with the you on the "bronze" brass being easily broken (I have broken two buttplates (not mine)) but I can assure you not all investment cast brass parts are that way. I have my investment cast TG's and BP's investment cast out of the same brass that Reaves uses. I believe you can bend one of my guards double when it comes out of the mold. If you work harden it you then need only to heat to a red and quench in water to aneal it (same as Reaves). Why others do not use it is beyond me. Maybe cost?
Dennis

 

[Stophel]

Mr Goehring said he has had a hard time finding foundries that will work with real brass. It is more expensive, and the zinc, as I understand it, gives off "toxic" fumes, so the EPA causes casters a lot of trouble over it. But, he has found someone to do it, and he has beautiful soft real yellow brass stuff.

I have an investment cast "Marshall" buttplate from Chambers, and I absolutely beat the manure out of it to make one of the heavily cupped German type buttplates, so, their parts seem good too. Problem is, I don't generally need any of the styles they have.