Brass Frame 1851s

[LostInSauce]

I'm sure we've had a million threads on this topic, so I figure one more won't break the camel's back. I recently got into BP shooting, and got myself a Colt 1851 Navy Reb Deluxe because it looked cool. I'm aware that the general opinion is that the brass frame is liable to shoot loose, as opposed to the steel frame. But I figure I'd get a second third millionth opinion on the topic. In the manuals I got (one from Pietta, the other from Cimarron? Maybe Traditions?) they listed two different powder loads to use. I've heard of people using powder loads as low as 7g, and one person saying that you can shoot full 30g loads so long as the cylinder has almost no wiggle room between itself and the frame. What loads do you guys recommend? Do you guys think the quality of brass used improved? Another question, how do you grip one of these revolvers? One hand? Two? Any details to pay attention to with finger placement? Finally, what size ball do you guys use for these? I got .457 because I figured bigger ball makes for a tighter seal.

Thanks for any help.

 

[Flintlock Fellow]

You’re right that brass frames can eventually shoot loose if pushed too hard. They just can’t handle the same long-term stress as steel frames. That said, if you stick to lighter loads (I’d recommend staying in the 15-20 grain range for regular use), your revolver should hold up fine. Brass technology has improved somewhat, but physics is physics—heavy loads will accelerate wear. You don’t want to beat the gun to death and send it to an early grave, do you?

For brass frames, I’d avoid max loads like 30 grains—those are better suited for steel frames. Somewhere around 15-20 grains of FFFg powder (or equivalent in Pyrodex) works well for brass revolvers and is more enjoyable to shoot. Less fouling, less recoil, and easier on the gun. I use ten grains in my .38 Mang in Graz, and I regularly hit steel targets out to 50 yards, frequently acing the pistol portion of our club trail walks (with targets posted between 15 and 50 yards). A lot of guys poke fun at my “frog fart” loads, but I think the results speak for themselves.

For gripping the revolver, one hand works great for that classic old-school feel, but you can use two hands if you’re looking for more stability. Just make sure your off-hand stays clear of the cylinder gap—the gas and debris that vents out there can be unpleasant (or worse). A solid one-handed grip places the web of your hand high on the backstrap, and your trigger finger should naturally land on the trigger. For two-handed shooting, support your firing hand with your off-hand underneath the grip.

Personally, I think .457 is a little on the large side. Most .44 cal revolvers call for .451/.454, with the exception being the Ruger Old Army. If it loads with relative ease for you, you’re good to go; however, if you find it’s difficult to ram it home, it may place unnecessary stress on the loading lever.

Enjoy the new toy!

 

[Ceddie]

15-18 GR of pyrodex green label.
CCI 11 caps (make sure they seat)
.454 or .451 roundball with a lubed felt wad
80% beeswax/20% olive oil sealed over all.

It's a very manageable recoil offhand.
Swab the barrel every other cylinder.

 

[LostInSauce]

You’re right that brass frames can eventually shoot loose if pushed too hard. They just can’t handle the same long-term stress as steel frames. That said, if you stick to lighter loads (I’d recommend staying in the 15-20 grain range for regular use), your revolver should hold up fine. Brass technology has improved somewhat, but physics is physics—heavy loads will accelerate wear. You don’t want to beat the gun to death and send it to an early grave, do you?

For brass frames, I’d avoid max loads like 30 grains—those are better suited for steel frames. Somewhere around 15-20 grains of FFFg powder (or equivalent in Pyrodex) works well for brass revolvers and is more enjoyable to shoot. Less fouling, less recoil, and easier on the gun. I use ten grains in my .38 Mang in Graz, and I regularly hit steel targets out to 50 yards, frequently acing the pistol portion of our club trail walks (with targets posted between 15 and 50 yards). A lot of guys poke fun at my “frog fart” loads, but I think the results speak for themselves.

For gripping the revolver, one hand works great for that classic old-school feel, but you can use two hands if you’re looking for more stability. Just make sure your off-hand stays clear of the cylinder gap—the gas and debris that vents out there can be unpleasant (or worse). A solid one-handed grip places the web of your hand high on the backstrap, and your trigger finger should naturally land on the trigger. For two-handed shooting, support your firing hand with your off-hand underneath the grip.

Personally, I think .457 is a little on the large side. Most .44 cal revolvers call for .451/.454, with the exception being the Ruger Old Army. If it loads with relative ease for you, you’re good to go; however, if you find it’s difficult to ram it home, it may place unnecessary stress on the loading lever.

Enjoy the new toy!

Very informative, thank you. I wasn't sure which ball to choose. I heard that .451 is liable to not seat very snugly in the chamber, and that the oversized nature of the .454 or .457 is good for safety and performance, just that they require more muscle to squeeze into the chamber. I don't plan on shooting super often just because you can't shoot on your own land out here so you have to book time at a range. According to google, .457 should fit. Hopefully it isn't unsafe or something. Maybe I'll just buy a steel frame as well, since they ought to be interchangeable.

15-18 GR of pyrodex green label.
CCI 11 caps (make sure they seat)
.454 or .451 roundball with a lubed felt wad
80% beeswax/20% olive oil sealed over all.

It's a very manageable recoil offhand.
Swab the barrel every other cylinder.

Regarding the balls, will a .457 work?

Thank you both for your help.

 

[Flintlock Fellow]

Very informative, thank you. I wasn't sure which ball to choose. I heard that .451 is liable to not seat very snugly in the chamber, and that the oversized nature of the .454 or .457 is good for safety and performance, just that they require more muscle to squeeze into the chamber. I don't plan on shooting super often just because you can't shoot on your own land out here so you have to book time at a range. According to google, .457 should fit. Hopefully it isn't unsafe or something. Maybe I'll just buy a steel frame as well, since they ought to be interchangeable.


Regarding the balls, will a .457 work?

Thank you both for your help.

You’re welcome! You’re absolutely correct about the advantages of using an oversized ball like a .454” or .457”. The important thing is that you get a tight seal in the chamber (verified by the shaving of a lead ring from the ball during the loading process), which not only improves performance by reducing gas blow-by but also enhances safety by minimizing the chance of a chain fire. All I’m saying is that .457 may put undue stress on your loading lever by requiring additional effort to start the ball into the cylinder. Give it a whirl, and if it loads with relative ease, you’ve got nothing to worry about.

Cylinder chamber dimensions can vary significantly among Italian black powder revolvers, even between models from the same manufacturer. For most .44 caliber revolvers, chambers can range from about .446” to .450”.

 

[Ceddie]

Sure .457 will work. It just takes a little more grunt.
If I were going to use it regularly, I'd look into a reloading press to save the wear on the pin.

 

[Flintlock Fellow]

Sure .457 will work. It just takes a little more grunt.
If I were going to use it regularly, old look into a reloading press to save the wear on the pin.

Ceddie makes a valid point— something I overlooked. If you’re going to be using a loading stand, then using .457” balls is really a non-issue.

 

[LostInSauce]

Sure .457 will work. It just takes a little more grunt.
If I were going to use it regularly, old look into a reloading press to save the wear on the pin.

Ceddie makes a valid point— something I overlooked. If you’re going to be using a loading stand, then using .457” balls is really a non-issue.

Thank you both so much. I'll be sure to give this a look. What are your guys' thoughts on conicals?

 

[Trev]

On Pietta's site they list all the revolver loads as one depending on caliber not frame or model, the .44 suggested loading is .454 balls with 12-15 grains FFG with max load of 35 grains BP FFG and Pyrodex of FFG 28 grains.
I like ~25 grains in my steel '58.

 

[Ceddie]

I don't have enough experience with conicals to offer an opinion.
I will say, that is on my short list of things to experiment with!

 

[Bnewberry]

The brass frame sure is pretty. I would reduce loads, I used to reduce loads in steel framed guns for cowboy action, 20 grains of 2f. Make sure the ball is seated on the powder the cap the cylinder with a thick grease. This prevents chain fires and keeps foulg soft.

One hand is the way to shoot these. They point like an extension of your hand!

Have fun!

 

[D Yager]

Two points to be made, Using 457 balls puts more stress on the arbor where it screws into the brass frame during loading, has the arbor been properly seated into the barrel socket? If not at least correct it. Chamfering the cylinder mouths so they swage the ball into the chamber rather than cutting lead off. This will make loading a bit easier. Do stick to light loads which is no fun, big problem on the brassers is the cylinder acts like a slide hammer and pounds the frame. I have seen imprints of the back of the cylinder pounded into the recoil shield as well as loose arbors. I would use .454 balls to at least ease up the pull on the arbor.

 

[LostInSauce]

The brass frame sure is pretty. I would reduce loads, I used to reduce loads in steel framed guns for cowboy action, 20 grains of 2f. Make sure the ball is seated on the powder the cap the cylinder with a thick grease. This prevents chain fires and keeps foulg soft.

One hand is the way to shoot these. They point like an extension of your hand!

Have fun!

What difference does shooting 2F or 3F make?

Two points to be made, Using 457 balls puts more stress on the arbor where it screws into the brass frame during loading, has the arbor been properly seated into the barrel socket? If not at least correct it. Chamfering the cylinder mouths so they swage the ball into the chamber rather than cutting lead off. This will make loading a bit easier. Do stick to light loads which is no fun, big problem on the brassers is the cylinder acts like a slide hammer and pounds the frame. I have seen imprints of the back of the cylinder pounded into the recoil shield as well as loose arbors. I would use .454 balls to at least ease up the pull on the arbor.

Sounds like I may want to get one of those loading stands like Ced and Flint Fellow suggested.

 

[Ceddie]

Two points to be made, Using 457 balls puts more stress on the arbor where it screws into the brass frame during loading, has the arbor been properly seated into the barrel socket? If not at least correct it. Chamfering the cylinder mouths so they swage the ball into the chamber rather than cutting lead off. This will make loading a bit easier. Do stick to light loads which is no fun, big problem on the brassers is the cylinder acts like a slide hammer and pounds the frame. I have seen imprints of the back of the cylinder pounded into the recoil shield as well as loose arbors. I would use .454 balls to at least ease up the pull on the arbor.

You make a great point about the chamfered chambers. I was honestly toying with the idea after I made the switch to steel frame.

Who do you recommend to do the machine work?
It would also be awesome to inlet the frame to allow for paper cartridges.

 

[Trev]

What difference does shooting 2F or 3F make?

In black powder, 3F being finer puts more mass into the same volume measure ( like filling a jar with rocks or filling it with sand) so that a with a given volume you get more mass, leading to higher pressures and higher velocity.
I've read that 3F also has a higher burn rate than 2F, again higher pressures and velocities
The density of the powder can vary between manufacturers too, and a volume of the same size from one manufacturer may actually weigh more than from another company.
I used a lot of 2F in my revolver, because I had it for the rifles, but eventually switched both to 3F at about 10% less volume in each charge. I'm back on 2F currently. Both go bang and create smoke. I don't think it makes a great difference in my random shooting at targets or hunting, but some guys that shoot better than I do, and adjust the charges by the weighed grain and chronograph the difference might say other wise.

 

[LostInSauce]

In black powder, 3F being finer puts more mass into the same volume measure ( like filling a jar with rocks or filling it with sand) so that a with a given volume you get more mass, leading to higher pressures and higher velocity.
I've read that 3F also has a higher burn rate than 2F, again higher pressures and velocities
The density of the powder can vary between manufacturers too, and a volume of the same size from one manufacturer may actually weigh more than from another company.
I used a lot of 2F in my revolver, because I had it for the rifles, but eventually switched both to 3F at about 10% less volume in each charge. I'm back on 2F currently. Both go bang and create smoke. I don't think it makes a great difference in my random shooting at targets or hunting, but some guys that shoot better than I do, and adjust the charges by the weighed grain and chronograph the difference might say other wise.

Very interesting. I wonder, then, what the best option for a brass frame would be.

 

[bpalbee]

You're in for a treat shooting that, and I think you're fooling yourself though if you think you can own just one. I'd stick with lighter loads: 12-17 grains of 2f or equivalent is sufficient to protect the brass frame but give you adequate performance. I want everything I own to last as long as it can.

If you want to shoot heavier loads, as others will surely chime in- a Ruger old army, or Italian 1858 clone is a little more stout than the Colt style, excepting maybe the dragoons of you want to tote that much gun.

I'd learn to cock it and shoot with the same hand, it's a natural feeling once you get used to it. A good book on revolver shooting is a must, there is more to it than can be discussed here.

 

[LostInSauce]

You're in for a treat shooting that, and I think you're fooling yourself though if you think you can own just one. I'd stick with lighter loads: 12-17 grains of 2f or equivalent is sufficient to protect the brass frame but give you adequate performance. I want everything I own to last as long as it can.

If you want to shoot heavier loads, as others will surely chime in- a Ruger old army, or Italian 1858 clone is a little more stout than the Colt style, excepting maybe the dragoons of you want to tote that much gun.

I'd learn to cock it and shoot with the same hand, it's a natural feeling once you get used to it. A good book on revolver shooting is a must, there is more to it than can be discussed here.

Is there a benefit to using 3F instead? I thought of getting a Walker, initially, since I have experience shooting a proper .357. But it's quite expensive. Maybe one day.

 

[bpalbee]

Is there a benefit to using 3F instead? I thought of getting a Walker, initially, since I have experience shooting a proper .357. But it's quite expensive. Maybe one day.

3f is finer and allows a stouter load rammed into the confined space, but 2f will allow you to compress a lighter load (some compression under the is important with black powder) you want to crunch the ball into that load so theres no dead space

 

[LostInSauce]

3f is finer and allows a stouter load rammed into the confined space, but 2f will allow you to compress a lighter load (some compression under the is important with black powder) you want to crunch the ball into that load so theres no dead space

Wow! Already learned something new. Thanks, I'll try the 2F instead of the 3F.