Brass Tacks on Knife Sheaths?

[LongWalker]

Doing restoration work my main source of brass tacks, was salvaging from old trunks. Even those have pretty much disappeared now. There was a guy in Europe a year or so ago making them, in the expected price range for what were essentially hand made tacks.

Yeah, the old trunk/old furniture option has become very limited over the past few years. Was the guy in Europe casting them or what? I looked into it a bit, couldn't see a cost-effective way to do it. But if a guy was already set up to cast brass, it could be doable.

 

[LRB]

I just put in an order to CRAZY CROW for 100 3/8" brass tacks. They were listed as being in stock so they should not take long to arrive. I will test them to see for all to know one way or the other if brass or not. We shall see. If they are brass for sure, I will send a sample to anyone who will send me a stamped self addressed suitable envelope. The brass tacks I used to get from them were solid brass with steel shanks. I would line them up on my vise anvil and torch anneal the shanks, punch holes in the leather, insert the shanks, bend a fish hook in the shanks, then hammer the shanks down. Bending a hook in the shank made them permanent. Sometimes when hammered the shank would come loose from the soft brass. Chuck Burrows told me he cut and peened the steel shanks to be lower than the surface when he set them so as to be period correct and not have them scratch or rub. Now, maybe Chuck said it to be possible these tacked items were made in St Louis, even if true the tack shanks were peened, according to what he told me, whether they be brass or iron shanked.

 

[waksupi]

Yeah, the old trunk/old furniture option has become very limited over the past few years. Was the guy in Europe casting them or what? I looked into it a bit, couldn't see a cost-effective way to do it. But if a guy was already set up to cast brass, it could be doable.

I think he was casting them.

 

[waksupi]

I just put in an order to CRAZY CROW for 100 3/8" brass tacks. They were listed as being in stock so they should not take long to arrive. I will test them to see for all to know one way or the other if brass or not. We shall see. If they are brass for sure, I will send a sample to anyone who will send me a stamped self addressed suitable envelope. The brass tacks I used to get from them were solid brass with steel shanks. I would line them up on my vise anvil and torch anneal the shanks, punch holes in the leather, insert the shanks, bend a fish hook in the shanks, then hammer the shanks down. Bending a hook in the shank made them permanent. Sometimes when hammered the shank would come loose from the soft brass. Chuck Burrows told me he cut and peened the steel shanks to be lower than the surface when he set them so as to be period correct and not have them scratch or rub. Now, maybe Chuck said it to be possible these tacked items were made in St Louis, even if true the tack shanks were peened, according to what he told me, whether they be brass or iron shanked.

You are the only one who doesn't seem to know. I'll wait for your apology for calling me a liar twice on a public forum.

 

[LRB]

I never called you a liar. I said I did not believe it. You take it how you want.

 

[Red Owl]

Wick: This may sound Crazy but a few times I got small brass square stock from ACE hardware and took a tack with a solid brass dome and steel shank and snapped off the shank. I then filled the inside of the dome with epoxy putty and then stuck in the square brass shank. The only reason I did this was to create the original look on the back of the sheath. I tried both the peen hammer and the bent clinch methods. I wouldn't do it on an Indian Sheath with 75 tacks but on a mountain man with only 8 or 9 tacks- not too much extra work.

 

[LRB]

Wick: This may sound Crazy but a few times I got small brass square stock from ACE hardware and took a tack with a solid brass dome and steel shank and snapped off the shank. I then filled the inside of the dome with epoxy putty and then stuck in the square brass shank. The only reason I did this was to create the original look on the back of the sheath. I tried both the peen hammer and the bent clinch methods. I wouldn't do it on an Indian Sheath with 75 tacks but on a mountain man with only 8 or 9 tacks- not too much extra work.

Sounds reasonable to me. That would work very well. Not crazy at all, if one wanted a really authentic look. Silver braze might work also. Where did your solid brass dome steel shank tacks come from? Same place as mine?

 

[fred fellows]

hi guys...thought id throw in a photo or two that might interest you...i got this sheath and scalping knife in 1976 from maragret devilin who was 96 years old and only daughter of lawrence devlin who built ft assiniboin at havre montana and collected this sheath and other things from gro hentre and assiboin indian friends on the reservation...you will notice all tacks are bent over and pounded flat...the fire steel is called a bright oval by hudson bay and small end is sharpend into a kind of screw driver....makes scense... i asked cecile horn a blackfoot lady friend who at the time was 90 plus...how she did you get the tacks on things so even...she said she cut the shank off a tack leaving about 1/16 of an inch...put the tack where you want it and press down...it leaves a mark and punch a hole with your awl and push the tack in....she bent it over and some people nip them off...she said indians cant get yellow iron tacks anymore....her description....

 

[LRB]

"From -> SJS (403580)
Hello Wick,
I left you a voicemail regarding your online order.
Unfortunately our inventory had not updated on our website
at the time of your order. We are out of the 3/8" high
dome brass tacks. We do have the 1/4" high dome tacks in
stock. Please let me know if you would like to change the
order to these instead.
Our system does not allow backorders less than $10, so
unfortunately if we do not change the item the order will
have to be canceled.
Please reply to this email or call me back at
1-800-786-6210 ex 114 and let me know what you would like
to do.
Thank you and sorry for the inconvenience,
Sarah at CCTP"
So, I will check some I have left over from a few years ago.

 

[BillinOregon]

Fred, wonderful photos and artifact history. Makes me realize how rare it is to see the back side of one of these sheaths. Thank you for posting them.
It really is a shame that the solid brass tacks are no longer available.

 

[Red Owl]

Is the sheath leather or rawhide? I'm wondering if a small filing was done on the shank to insure it bent at the correct spot. On the knife, any information on the stamp mark?
Those shanks are just bent over, not crimped, good to know.
LRB- it was so long ago I forget, maybe Crazy Crow. I padded a pair of pliers to grip the rim of the dome without damaging it and then started twisting, bending the shank with another pair of pliers until it snapped off. I thought about soldering, etc. but the epoxy was a lot easier to work with. JB Weld. Once installed, you can't see the epoxy and I've never had a shank pull out. If I recall, a made a couple of crimps with the pliers on the shank area in the dome which also made a mechanical lock.
What I made looks just like the sheath above on the back side.

 

[Kabulrocks]

Sorry, Waksupi, I was typing as you made your post. If you ever need any small diameter solid brass, copper, or steel nails or tacks, check out D B Gurney they have been making tacks and nails, including hob nails since before the Civil War, and are still USA made.

D B Gurney must be the source for the small brass nails used in wood airplane construction and restoration. Brass is used since it won’t rust. Interesting, I always wondered who made such a thing nowadays.

 

[Rod Man]

"From -> SJS (403580)
Hello Wick,
I left you a voicemail regarding your online order.
Unfortunately our inventory had not updated on our website
at the time of your order. We are out of the 3/8" high
dome brass tacks. We do have the 1/4" high dome tacks in
stock. Please let me know if you would like to change the
order to these instead.
Our system does not allow backorders less than $10, so
unfortunately if we do not change the item the order will
have to be canceled.
Please reply to this email or call me back at
1-800-786-6210 ex 114 and let me know what you would like
to do.
Thank you and sorry for the inconvenience,
Sarah at CCTP"
So, I will check some I have left over from a few years ago.

Wow, talk about coincidence. So I have been debating on whether "To Tack or Not to Tack" a sheath I just built for my Hudson Bay Camp knife. I went ahead and bought a hundred of the 1/4" high dome from CC. They are of two-piece construction. Solid brass top with a steel nail pressed/seated in. Pretty dern strong too. @Notchy Bob @Runewolf1973

So Now lets really stir the Mud! What about "To Rivet or not to Rivet" Ha! LOL!

I am just thinking I am not a "Tack" guy and starting to think I am not much of a "Rivet" guy either. I can see placing one Rivet on the corner near the flaps but otherwise thinking less is more...but it seems that everybody seems to think that I need both...

 

[Notchy Bob]

All of this is very interesting. I made a sheath with brass tacks that had the steel wire shanks maybe 45+ years ago. I bent the protruding ends over, sort of like the tacks in the sheath shown by @fred fellows in post #28. It worked, but felt kind of "prickly" and uncomfortable to wear, so it was kept for display only. One of the earlier posts in this thread showed brass "spots," which have two prongs, These are still solid brass (actually formed out of brass sheet, but all brass). The problem with these is the prongs are too short to go through multiple thicknesses of heavy leather. You might get them to work with 4 oz. leather doubled over, but I doubt you could go any thicker.

As noted many times, the really old brass tacks were cast of one piece, head and shank, with a square shank. These have come available a few times in recent years, but I've consistently missed the boat and failed to acquire any of the new ones. I did score a little trove of 54 antique solid brass, square-shank tacks from a vendor on Ebay last year, and have been saving them for a couple of special projects. These do come up for sale online once in a blue moon, and you should expect to pay about a dollar apiece for them, but not much less. I don't have definitive dates, but one antique dealer (I think McPheeter) mentioned the brass-head tacks with steel wire shanks first became available in the 1860's. If that is true, and I have not been able to corroborate it, I suspect there was a period of "overlap" when both types of brass tacks were available.

There was an outfit in Kentucky called Americana Unlimited back in the seventies and eighties that sold tacks with solid brass heads and steel shanks. He made it a big issue of this in his literature, as the brass-plated and so-called "gilt" tacks were being sold, also. I bought a couple hundred tacks from Track of the Wolf maybe 15 or so years ago that have brass heads, but a forum buddy who bought some from Crazy Crow recently said the ones he received were plated. I think he said he filed through the plating on one of them to check. I haven't bought any recently, so can't comment from personal experience.

If I were to make another tacked sheath, I think what I would do would be to use the two-pronged brass spots, or maybe some of my old-stock tacks from Track of the Wolf (with all brass heads) and install them in the leather after it was cut to shape but before folding it over. I would clinch the protruding ends on the back of one layer of leather, and then fold it and secure the leather pieces with fresh, top-quality contact cement. This makes a very strong and permanent bond when done correctly. This would eliminate the prickly nails on the back. Very few of the old tacked sheaths showed any stitching to augment the brass tacks, but relied only on the tacks to hold it together. Fred showed us a super nice old sheath with the nails clinched, but sometimes the tacks were simply broken off flush on the back of the sheath. This old Crow sheath (images from Live Auctioneers) was evidently made with that technique:




Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[LRB]

Is the sheath leather or rawhide? I'm wondering if a small filing was done on the shank to insure it bent at the correct spot. On the knife, any information on the stamp mark?
Those shanks are just bent over, not crimped, good to know.
LRB- it was so long ago I forget, maybe Crazy Crow. I padded a pair of pliers to grip the rim of the dome without damaging it and then started twisting, bending the shank with another pair of pliers until it snapped off. I thought about soldering, etc. but the epoxy was a lot easier to work with. JB Weld. Once installed, you can't see the epoxy and I've never had a shank pull out. If I recall, a made a couple of crimps with the pliers on the shank area in the dome which also made a mechanical lock.
What I made looks just like the sheath above on the back side.

I found needle nosed pliers worked well to bend the shanks if you annealed the shanks with a torch. torch them to red, let them cool.

 

[LRB]

"From -> SJS (403580)
Hello Wick,
I left you a voicemail regarding your online order.
Unfortunately our inventory had not updated on our website
at the time of your order. We are out of the 3/8" high
dome brass tacks. We do have the 1/4" high dome tacks in
stock. Please let me know if you would like to change the
order to these instead.
Our system does not allow backorders less than $10, so
unfortunately if we do not change the item the order will
have to be canceled.
Please reply to this email or call me back at
1-800-786-6210 ex 114 and let me know what you would like
to do.
Thank you and sorry for the inconvenience,
Sarah at CCTP"
So, I will check some I have left over from a few years ago.

"From -> SJS (403580)
Hello Wick,
I do not have a date on anything that is out of stock,
I would suggest checking in a few weeks or so and seeing
if we have them back in stock.
I checked on the heads of the brass tacks for you, they
are in fact solid brass with a steel shank.
Would you like me to go ahead and cancel this order
since they cannot be backordered?
Please reply to this email or call 1-800-786-6210 ex 114
and let me know.
Thank you,
Sarah at CCTP"

She does not mention how she checked the tacks. To be certain, I will withhold judgement until I can get a sample of the tacks to test myself. I will test with my belt grinder.

 

[LRB]

All of this is very interesting. I made a sheath with brass tacks that had the steel wire shanks maybe 45+ years ago. I bent the protruding ends over, sort of like the tacks in the sheath shown by @fred fellows in post #28. It worked, but felt kind of "prickly" and uncomfortable to wear, so it was kept for display only. One of the earlier posts in this thread showed brass "spots," which have two prongs, These are still solid brass (actually formed out of brass sheet, but all brass). The problem with these is the prongs are too short to go through multiple thicknesses of heavy leather. You might get them to work with 4 oz. leather doubled over, but I doubt you could go any thicker.

As noted many times, the really old brass tacks were cast of one piece, head and shank, with a square shank. These have come available a few times in recent years, but I've consistently missed the boat and failed to acquire any of the new ones. I did score a little trove of 54 antique solid brass, square-shank tacks from a vendor on Ebay last year, and have been saving them for a couple of special projects. These do come up for sale online once in a blue moon, and you should expect to pay about a dollar apiece for them, but not much less. I don't have definitive dates, but one antique dealer (I think McPheeter) mentioned the brass-head tacks with steel wire shanks first became available in the 1860's. If that is true, and I have not been able to corroborate it, I suspect there was a period of "overlap" when both types of brass tacks were available.

There was an outfit in Kentucky called Americana Unlimited back in the seventies and eighties that sold tacks with solid brass heads and steel shanks. He made it a big issue of this in his literature, as the brass-plated and so-called "gilt" tacks were being sold, also. I bought a couple hundred tacks from Track of the Wolf maybe 15 or so years ago that have brass heads, but a forum buddy who bought some from Crazy Crow recently said the ones he received were plated. I think he said he filed through the plating on one of them to check. I haven't bought any recently, so can't comment from personal experience.

If I were to make another tacked sheath, I think what I would do would be to use the two-pronged brass spots, or maybe some of my old-stock tacks from Track of the Wolf (with all brass heads) and install them in the leather after it was cut to shape but before folding it over. I would clinch the protruding ends on the back of one layer of leather, and then fold it and secure the leather pieces with fresh, top-quality contact cement. This makes a very strong and permanent bond when done correctly. This would eliminate the prickly nails on the back. Very few of the old tacked sheaths showed any stitching to augment the brass tacks, but relied only on the tacks to hold it together. Fred showed us a super nice old sheath with the nails clinched, but sometimes the tacks were simply broken off flush on the back of the sheath. This old Crow sheath (images from Live Auctioneers) was evidently made with that technique:

View attachment 218195
View attachment 218196

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

I believe those shanks are trimmed then peened setting them just below the surface as Chuck Burrows described to me. It would be difficult to break shanks evenly with the surface and they would have near zero holding ability, even in rawhide. The tack placements are remarkably neat on that one.

 

[user 48702]

"From -> SJS (403580)
Hello Wick,
I do not have a date on anything that is out of stock,
I would suggest checking in a few weeks or so and seeing
if we have them back in stock.
I checked on the heads of the brass tacks for you, they
are in fact solid brass with a steel shank.
Would you like me to go ahead and cancel this order
since they cannot be backordered?
Please reply to this email or call 1-800-786-6210 ex 114
and let me know.
Thank you,
Sarah at CCTP"

She does not mention how she checked the tacks. To be certain, I will withhold judgement until I can get a sample of the tacks to test myself. I will test with my belt grinder.

I for one am hoping that the heads are in fact solid brass because at about $8 per 100, that beats the heck out of paying .60 to .85 cents a piece. Back about 1992, I bought 500 brass head tacks and they were in the neighborhood of $23 to $24 per hundred and that was 30 years ago. Let me know if they are in fact solid brass and I'll buy at least a 1,000.

 

[user 48702]

All of this is very interesting. I made a sheath with brass tacks that had the steel wire shanks maybe 45+ years ago. I bent the protruding ends over, sort of like the tacks in the sheath shown by @fred fellows in post #28. It worked, but felt kind of "prickly" and uncomfortable to wear, so it was kept for display only. One of the earlier posts in this thread showed brass "spots," which have two prongs, These are still solid brass (actually formed out of brass sheet, but all brass). The problem with these is the prongs are too short to go through multiple thicknesses of heavy leather. You might get them to work with 4 oz. leather doubled over, but I doubt you could go any thicker.

As noted many times, the really old brass tacks were cast of one piece, head and shank, with a square shank. These have come available a few times in recent years, but I've consistently missed the boat and failed to acquire any of the new ones. I did score a little trove of 54 antique solid brass, square-shank tacks from a vendor on Ebay last year, and have been saving them for a couple of special projects. These do come up for sale online once in a blue moon, and you should expect to pay about a dollar apiece for them, but not much less. I don't have definitive dates, but one antique dealer (I think McPheeter) mentioned the brass-head tacks with steel wire shanks first became available in the 1860's. If that is true, and I have not been able to corroborate it, I suspect there was a period of "overlap" when both types of brass tacks were available.

There was an outfit in Kentucky called Americana Unlimited back in the seventies and eighties that sold tacks with solid brass heads and steel shanks. He made it a big issue of this in his literature, as the brass-plated and so-called "gilt" tacks were being sold, also. I bought a couple hundred tacks from Track of the Wolf maybe 15 or so years ago that have brass heads, but a forum buddy who bought some from Crazy Crow recently said the ones he received were plated. I think he said he filed through the plating on one of them to check. I haven't bought any recently, so can't comment from personal experience.

If I were to make another tacked sheath, I think what I would do would be to use the two-pronged brass spots, or maybe some of my old-stock tacks from Track of the Wolf (with all brass heads) and install them in the leather after it was cut to shape but before folding it over. I would clinch the protruding ends on the back of one layer of leather, and then fold it and secure the leather pieces with fresh, top-quality contact cement. This makes a very strong and permanent bond when done correctly. This would eliminate the prickly nails on the back. Very few of the old tacked sheaths showed any stitching to augment the brass tacks, but relied only on the tacks to hold it together. Fred showed us a super nice old sheath with the nails clinched, but sometimes the tacks were simply broken off flush on the back of the sheath. This old Crow sheath (images from Live Auctioneers) was evidently made with that technique:

View attachment 218195
View attachment 218196

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

Notchy:
They make the spots with various length legs, 3/16", 4/16", and 5/16", as well as various size heads. The Standard Rivet Company's products are all made in the USA. I buy wholesale from them, but they recently started selling to the public in quantities as small as 100 pcs. I chose this page mainly because it pertains to the round head spots, and they have them in plain solid brass as well as solid nickel silver. Round Head Spot | Standard Rivet

Here is one of the repro 1940s kids cap gun rigs that I make using both 3/16" and 3/8" nickel brass spots. I believe there are about 200 nickel brass spots and rivets in this little double rig. These folks are high quality all the way. I set the spots with one of their original #2 foot riveters which they said according to the serial number was made about 1905, and its still chugging along after all these years.

 

[Notchy Bob]

@Gunny5821 ,

Thank you for that! The only places I knew to get the brass spots were Indian-craft suppliers and maybe Tandy. The ones I’ve bought in the past had no choice with regard to leg length.

I will check out Standard Rivet Company!

Thanks for the tip!

Notchy Bob