Breech plug on India-made barrel

[dave_person]

Hi Guys,
A friend asked me to look at the barrel on his India-made Ketland officer's fusil. The barrel and gun were made by Abdul Hakim Usta in 1979. The bolster on the breech plug is very small and it appears to have a flange around it that caps the end of the barrel. The internal plug also has an end that seems to be slanted to the side opposite the vent hole rather than perpendicular to the bore. Have any of you pulled these kinds of plugs and are there any tricks I need to know?

dave

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
So none of you guys with these India-made guns have removed the breech plugs?

dave

 

[Trot]

Sorry, looks like you are on your own Dave! You hear so much about these India guns though, I would be interested in what you find out about the breech plug.

 

[leverfred]

I will let you know what I find next week on mine.

 

[Treestalker]

May the peace and blessings of Allah be on you who shoot the rockets!

 

[Alexander Efremenko]

Dave, can you actually see threads?
I remember seeing/ reading that some of these older gun's plagues were pressured in.
I reverse engineered one a few years back. It had a very short,threaded breachplug.
I'm not a fan of any of these India guns at all.
Good luck to you.

 

[Leadball loader]

Hi,
So none of you guys with these India-made guns have removed the breech plugs?

dave

I have removed the breech plugs on three of my India muskets and found them to be well threaded.
I made the grooved area where the flash vent came through slightly deeper for access to the main charge.
These muskets were purchased through Military Heritage in Canada.
A barrel vice was used and I made a witness mark to return to.

 

[FlinterNick]

I’ve pulled Indian Breech Plugs on a few occasions.

One had some type of iron welded bar at the back of it with an unthreaded plug, which was more like a cap then an actual plug, not knowing if the barrel integrity was strong enough to take a threaded plug, I returned the firearm with a recommendation to sell it as unusable.

Another one, a French gun the plug seemed to have been put in the gun by a previous owner, however the threaded were not straight and drifted to one side causing the breech area to be compromised.

On two other’s the breech plugs seemed ok, actually very good quality just needed to be slightly shaved from the vent area.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Guys,
Thanks for the replies. I've fixed and worked over quite few locks from these guns but never removed a plug. Of course, I have decades of experience removing and fitting breech plugs. This barrel is different because there is a flange around the plug that butts against or caps the breech of the barrel. I have no idea if the internal plug is threaded or if the plug (cap?) is welded on. The vent hole is 3/32" in diameter. I think I am going to leave it alone because on first try it did not budge and the bolster is small and tapered making it hard to grip in my breeching tools. I attached a photo showing the breech.
dave

 

[Leadball loader]

Hi Guys,
Thanks for the replies. I've fixed and worked over quite few locks from these guns but never removed a plug. Of course, I have decades of experience removing and fitting breech plugs. This barrel is different because there is a flange around the plug that butts against or caps the breech of the barrel. I have no idea if the internal plug is threaded or if the plug (cap?) is welded on. The vent hole is 3/32" in diameter. I think I am going to leave it alone because on first try it did not budge and the bolster is small and tapered making it hard to grip in my breeching tools. I attached a photo showing the breech.
dave

Dave, If there is a stamped A H U. Udr India C/1xxxx. 25/9/79 or similar markings I believe you have threaded plug that can be removed. There is probably a witness mark also visible under the breech near the stamps.
It took a major amount of torque to loosen and return the plug with a large adjustable wrench and a use of a modern barrel vice with crushed lead sheets and resin powder.
You can protect the tang with some metal plates. It also looks from the corrosion stain like a good soak of break free insde the breech would help start it loose.
Hope this helps as it looks stained but shootable if you check the plug out.
Leadball loader

 

[rickystl]

Hi Dave

You mention a "flange" on the breech plug. It might turn out to look something like this:
Pic shown with conventional breech plug.

Rick

 

[dave_person]

Hi Leadball,
That is exactly what I have here. Thanks, that reassures me that I can break it free and unscrew it. I'll give it a go. Thanks everyone for your replies and help. I appreciate it very much.

dave

 

[dave_person]

Hi Guys,
I gave up. The bolster is so small and tapered that it requires a lot of jigging up to hold. In addition, the round barrel has so little flat near the vent that it is really hard to prevent it from turning without marring it. The gun is not worth my time. It is a real piece of junk. I attached some photos. What is particularly aggravating is the seller took advantage of my blind and naive friend charging him $900 and telling him it was a Northwest trade gun, which he wanted. The thing is not worth $50 for salvage. The barrel channel was filled in spots with some sort of mastic. The inlets all have some fill around them. The lock catches in the half cock notch when fired, the web of wood between the barrel channel and ramrod groove is 7/16". The bolster at the breech does not butt against the stock and the gap is filled with mastic. Finally, there is nothing about this gun that is historically correct except it is smooth bored and a flintlock. What a piece of garbage at any price.
dave

 

[Leadball loader]

Hi Guys,
I gave up. The bolster is so small and tapered that it requires a lot of jigging up to hold. In addition, the round barrel has so little flat near the vent that it is really hard to prevent it from turning without marring it. The gun is not worth my time. It is a real piece of junk. I attached some photos. What is particularly aggravating is the seller took advantage of my blind and naive friend charging him $900 and telling him it was a Northwest trade gun, which he wanted. The thing is not worth $50 for salvage. The barrel channel was filled in spots with some sort of mastic. The inlets all have some fill around them. The lock catches in the half cock notch when fired, the web of wood between the barrel channel and ramrod groove is 7/16". The bolster at the breech does not butt against the stock and the gap is filled with mastic. Finally, there is nothing about this gun that is historically correct except it is smooth bored and a flintlock. What a piece of garbage at any price.
dave

Dave , I wish your friend had checked with you before purchasing the gun. It is way over priced for type and condition.
Sorry to see a situation like this that could be prevented by checking with someone familiar with Muzzleloading guns.
Leadball loader

 

[poker]

That sure is a low thing to do. Ripping off someone like that, and especially somebody who really couldn’t know what he was getting into. I sure hope you guys confront the man and demand a refund.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Poker and Leadball,
Thanks for your comments and help. Unfortunately, my blind friend purchased the gun 6 years ago and has shot it safely during that time. He just never knew what he had and no one else ever told him. He asked me to help him remove the barrel after I told him it was a good idea to do so every once in a while to check for corrosion. When I first saw the gun, I knew it was India made because of the bright polish on the barrel and lock. After removing the barrel I could see the maker's marks. My friend is very depressed and disappointed at the moment finding out he was taken advantage of. It is clear from talking to him that he experienced abuse such as that quite a few times from different people. Anyway, I think we may salvage this situation for the better. I think the barrel is safe to shoot from inspecting the bore with a bore light. I'll work over the lock for him so it works as it should. He can then use the gun for a while until I have a time slot to salvage the good parts and build a new gun. I'll replace the barrel and then completely redo the lock. I'll treat it like an unfinished kit and I think it can turn out very well. I am currently helping him build a rifle (which I posted "Building Blind" in the Gun Maker's Bench section) so he will have that to shoot by spring. It will be while before I can help him with a smooth bore because of my backlog of work but I'll get to it. In the meantime, I am showing him well made guns so he can feel them and understand what makes a good gun. He will learn enough to never get exploited again.

dave

 

[FlinterNick]

Sorry that the gun is not worth the project time Dave.

I’ve come across that mastic mess on the wood on Indian Guns, its some type of resin that they used to fill gaps. Its certainly not suited for firearms, might even be somewhat corrosive when it heats up and melts after shooting.

That Breech Plug looks fragile. The threads are way too far apart, I’ve seen Indian Plugs threaded incorrectly before, whether they’re too long or too short or just threaded like a water line or hose.

The barrel looks almost like a Charleville Barrel at the breech with the two small flats. Charleville’s are hard to unseize, lots of soaking in Kroil and on the Repro’s they’re usually machined on with a high powered wrench making it almost impossible to unseize.

 

[poker]

You’re a great person Dave! No pun intended. Just seeing you go the extra mile for your friend does us all good. Thank you

 

[dave_person]

Hi and thanks folks,
What looks like corrosion on the bottom of the barrel and at the breech in the photos above is actually the mastic filler stuck to the barrel. I took the lock apart yesterday and found that the bridle and sear screw were not tightening down all the way, When I did that, it pinched and locked the tumbler in place. So the tumbler is wider than the space for it under the bridle. The tumbler spindle that goes in the bridle has a flat on it. The lock plate is thicker than the round tumbler post so the squared shoulder is buried within the hole in the lock plate, which is loose. That means when the flint cock is tightened down, it grinds against the lock plate. The lock plate is so thick that I can consider it just a raw mass of steel to be reshaped. In the process of examining the lock I could not help laughing and thinking of Jean Shephard's funny story about his first car in high school with the balsa wood transmission and bald tires on which the dealer burned in tread with a soldering iron.
dave

 

[FlinterNick]

Hi and thanks folks,
What looks like corrosion on the bottom of the barrel and at the breech in the photos above is actually the mastic filler stuck to the barrel. I took the lock apart yesterday and found that the bridle and sear screw were not tightening down all the way, When I did that, it pinched and locked the tumbler in place. So the tumbler is wider than the space for it under the bridle. The tumbler spindle that goes in the bridle has a flat on it. The lock plate is thicker than the round tumbler post so the squared shoulder is buried within the hole in the lock plate, which is loose. That means when the flint cock is tightened down, it grinds against the lock plate. The lock plate is so thick that I can consider it just a raw mass of steel to be reshaped. In the process of examining the lock I could not help laughing and thinking of Jean Shephard's funny story about his first car in high school with the balsa wood transmission and bald tires on which the dealer burned in tread with a soldering iron.
dave

typical Indian lock geometry issues. The internals are often soft too.

Time and patience is all you need for a perfect lock. And lots of files