Breech plug removal on old flintlock

[rescuemike]

please. drills do not belong in a gun barrel ,after they are made

Unless it’s being done by a qualified Gunsmith…

 

[William Lincoln]

CVA makes great guns. They had a bunch of lawsuits relating to in-line breech plugs
that were poorly threaded. Today they make the barrels used by sharpshooters in
police departments and have re-introduced the Remington 700 under another
name based upon the Bergara barrel brand. CVA is based in Lawrenceville Georgia
with factories in the Basque gunmaking regeon of Spain. Outside of Custom guns,
the CVA line is the highest quality bang for the buck and has good support in the USA.
This excludes BP Revolvers which remain the domain of the Italians. My opinion from
first hand use over the years.

 

[hawkeye2]

Not many of the early inexpensive import rifles had a vent liner (did any have?).

Nowhere has the OP stated that he has tried to remove what is in the barrel.

Do the ramrod thimbles have a hole up through them? If so, then they are screwed into the barrel and hold the stock to it. These and the nose cap screws must be removed. I'm not sure about the pins but it probably would be a good idea to remove them too. likely they were added by the kit builder.

If I were working on the gun I would first remove the lock and squirt something (WD-40 with a straw) into the breech to kill any powder there. A rubber tipped blowgun should seal against the barrel well enough to work so long as it isn't one of those safety ones that limit the pressure available.

I have never heard that CVA breech plugs were poorly threaded or unsafe in any way.

 

[TA6319]

Have you had any joy taking the screws out that are in the ram rod channel?
I have a Spanish smoothbore that has to have the screws undone in the channel as well as the tang screw

 

[oldwood]

Once , Long ago , and far away , two self proclaimed m/l mechanics were at the range , and were certain, one had dry balled a Spanish .45 cal percussion sort- of long rifle. Not having a plethora of any kinds of tools , and limited mechanical accum , ,their combined thought , was to put the breach end of the barrel into Mom's coal furnace , and melt the ball out of the breach. OOPS , , the rifle was not dry balled , but was loaded. When the unexpected detonation became evident, next , all souls accounted for in the cellar , was to forensically track the path of the projectile. It glanced off the concrete block cellar wall on an upward angle , and embedded it self into a floor joist. Crisis averted , mom was safe upstairs with a question for the brothers , What the HeLp was that???? One wonderful benefit of the forum , Following freely given practical advise, keeps most safe , and keeps Mom from from getting SMOKIN' Pized....................oldwood

 

[cebusey]

I thought I read that advice from CVA that old 1970 era Spanish made CVA muzzle loaders had potentially poorly threaded breach plugs that could be dangerous and advised not to shoot them.
Also I thought I read that the ownership of CVA changed I the 1970’s so maybe they were just trying to distance the company from past mistakes or warranty obligations.
I built a CVA Kit in 76-77 a 45 cal flintlock, it worked but after reading about the iffy breach plugs I quit using it, still got the rifle.

Never had any problems with mine but have not shot it in decades - I also have one of their flint pistols and the plug has weld marks - it is a 1970. I got it new in kit form. Barrel is actually bored off center. Lock took a lot of tuning to get it to spark well. The rifle - sparked great but had a lousy sear spring.

 

[Rudall]

Nowhere has the OP stated that he has tried to remove what is in the barrel.

OP line 3.

 

[pilot]

Keep in mind that the rifle, especially in it's current condition, is not a valuable antique. I would not spend much money on it.

 

[hawkeye2]

OP line 3.

Line 2 actually, sorry, I missed that.

 

[gundoc2000]

you could also go to a reputable auto clinic and see if they have a lighted scope harbor freight sells them for around 60 dollars I use one a lot to look down muzzle loader barrels real handy and they have a pretty good picture they are about 35 inches or better so you can see way down they are about 1/4 dia so can be use on numerous calibers

gundoc

 

[Gordoncourtney]

I agree with @desi23's assessment. @MacShay's rifle is from about 1970.

I would consider removing the barrel from the stock. I am not sure, but the nose piece may be threaded into the barrel. Those two screws should be removed. The pins that are in the diamond inlays hold the stock to the barrel. Those pins will have to be removed to separate the barrel from the stock. I do not see pins holding the thimbles in the stock. Are the thimbles threaded into the barrel? If the thimbles are threaded into the barrel, these will have to be removed.



MacShay did not tell us if he poured a penetrating lubricant (Kroil, ATF and acetone, or any other penetrating oil) before trying the ball pullers. What residue was pulled out when the puller was removed? Was it lead or wood from the broken ramrod? Did the ball puller thread into the ball? Being a flint lock rifle, does this rifle have a vent liner? It is hard to tell from the lock picture. Do you now have a hole through the ball? What material was used in the construction of the rod that was used in the attempt to pull the ball? If there is a hole through the obstruction, then the CO2 discharger or grease gun may not work. The touch hole liner will have to be removed to determine a thread pitch for zerk fitting for a grease gun. Because of potential interference issues, the touch hole liner should be removed before considering breech plug removal.

First remove the barrel from the stock. Soak the breech in a bath of penetrating oil. This may require a few days of soaking. If you have a touch hole liner, I would next go to the use of a high-pressure grease gun to move the obstacle. If there is a hole through the obstacle, then it is time to remove the breech plug.


Yes, removing the breech plug is possible and is one of the possible means of removing the obstruction. Proper tools are required. Notably the tools include a heavy work bench, a very sturdy bench smooth jawed vise with wood and leather jaw liners to prevent marring and a very large breech plug wrench or large smooth jawed crescent wrench and a large hammer to provide some impact when trying to unscrew the breech plug. Once the breech plug is removed, a just under bore sized steel rod can be used to drive the blockage out through the breech.

There is so much unknown about the state of your rifle that we can go down about 15 pages of fanciful comments and still leave the obstruction in the barrel.

.

Interesting both of my barrels on my 1853 percussion cape rifle , I just won at auction, were blocked and I did not want to remove the nipples. I got some spring wire from a bicycle cable and after a week of say unblocking the drain via the nipple The crud started to move it took ages finally I thumped the barrels onto a block of lead and a pile of crud came out then it was just cleaning it out with a ramrod. I actually made one with some bits of wire welded to a steel rod. I have had it a year and not shot it. No police permit uk Ps I also cleared one with a ramrod made of copper pipe with the end filed into saw teeth it did well and could not scratch the bore

I wish you well from UK

 

[MacShay]

I will try to answer previous questions via this post.

Re: breech plug. After taking the barrel out, the breech plug appears to be welded. Ther is no separation line

After tinkering with it for a few days, I finally got the stock and barrel separated or rather part of the stock. Apparently, this flintlock has two sections to the stock and I was able to remove the breech portion. And I believe now that it will be a wall hanger forever. There is no hole in the breech end but there is a brass pin showing so I believe thats' where the flash hole was or should be.

I've tried several times to use a ball puller to no avail. And with no flash hole, neither a CO2 extractor or a grease gun will work. I did not try the long drill bit but may still do that since it will never be shot. The barrel length is 33 5/8 inches measured from the tip of the muzzle to the end of the breech. A rod will go no further than 29 7/8 inches into the barrel. So I'm now thinking the barrel may have been plugged.

In removing the 2 piece stock, There was one tang screw and 2 muzzle screws under the ramrod. Took lock out and side plate off, plus took the pin in the diamond out but unable to separate the stock forend from the barrel. May just be stuck now since I see no other pins or screws holding it in.

Looking for advice to finish getting stock off. Any thoughts? I want to clean the rust and junk off the barrel and put it all back together again.

 

[MacShay]

Thanks for all the advice. I have the old girl apart and am cleaning it up. No further work will be done on it and it is a wall hanger now. This is a great forum and you all are so helpful. Thanks...

 

[waksupi]

Unless it’s being done by a qualified Gunsmith…

I am one, and wouldn't do it.

 

[M. De Land]

Last photo post.

I think it may be a Muruku reproduction made in Japan from the cast engraving and short trigger I see on it. I have one of there .45 cal Kentucky pistols I picked up for 20 bucks that is a good shooter and sparks fine. I forged out the trigger to a decent length and shape , milled a new front sight blade for it and it shoots fine.
Does the gun have an angled forward, non lined, flash hole ?

 

[FlinterNick]

There’s a couple of things you can do.

Soaking the plug in CLP or Kroil for a night or two will help.

I use aluminum shim to remove breech plugs, it works very well and does not mare up the barrel.

The jaws on my vise are also made from soft aluminum barstock, so they will mare up any steel parts I clamp down on.

Once the breech plug is off, if you’re going to clean it, only do so in an ultrasonic and burst with a brass or plastic brush. do no use steel.

Grease it heavily with graphite or machine grease.

I’m removing the breech plug on an Miroku charleville round barrel that’s been previously greased with graphite anti seize.

FYI this isn’t something done often on guns, Its usually done to correct an issue or add a vent liner or remove a stuck ball. Otherwise, its just not something that needs to be done often and cleaning the gun doens’t require its removal.

If you do remove the plug when cleaning, make sure its greased very well the plug and breech threads and verify that you have a witness mark and never attempt to turn a plug past that mark.

 

[The Appalachian]

CVA makes great guns. They had a bunch of lawsuits relating to in-line breech plugs
that were poorly threaded. Today they make the barrels used by sharpshooters in
police departments and have re-introduced the Remington 700 under another
name based upon the Bergara barrel brand. CVA is based in Lawrenceville Georgia
with factories in the Basque gunmaking regeon of Spain. Outside of Custom guns,
the CVA line is the highest quality bang for the buck and has good support in the USA.
This excludes BP Revolvers which remain the domain of the Italians. My opinion from
first hand use over the years.

For the record.....

BPI Outdoors is a parent company that owns the CVA brand and the Bergara brand, along with three other brand names. BPI has owned the CVA brand since 1999. BPI corporate is located in Lawrenceville GA, The CVA factory is in Spain. The Bergara barrel factory is in Spain. The Bergara Rifle factory is in Spain.

CVA is NOT Bergara, Bergara is NOT CVA.

Bergara does make the barrels for CVA muzzleloaders, which today are all inlines. Bergara was originally a barrel maker, and has supplied other brands with barrels.

The lawsuits over "exploding CVAs" prompted CVA to begin a recall in 1997 for rifles made in 1995 and 1996, which BPI Outdoors still honors today as they make every effort to acount for the 55,000 affected rifles. Today's designs since the 1999 take over by BPI have been changed to eliminate any of the old issues.

The Bergara B-14 bolt action rifle is a sort of close clone of the Remington 700 rifle, but is NOT a reintroduction of the Remington 700. It is it's own animal, designed and built by a team of former Marines from the USMC PWS. I've set several of the B-14s up for people for long range precision shooting. I know both actions well enough to know the differences of each.

The Remington 700 is being reintroduced as an upgraded model 700 Alpha 1 by the newly renamed RemArms, which formed after courts broke up the umbrella of Remington holdings into 7 different parcels due to bankruptcy 2 years ago. The new Remington plant is in LaGrange, Georgia, and has nothing to do with BPI, CVA, or Bergara.

 

[Grenadier1758]

While looking at @FlinterNick's photos, I was thinking that when removing a breech plug, the clamping pressure from the vise should be just ahead of the threads of the breech plug. The clamping pressure can put pressure on the engagement of the threads and make removal more difficult. So, when placing the barrel in the vise for removal of the breech plug, measure to find the end of the threads of the breech plug and mark the barrel in order to clamp the barrel solidly in the vise and not press the barrel threads into the threads of the breech plug. Also, you will have confirmed that the barrel is not loaded.

 

[FlinterNick]

While looking at @FlinterNick's photos, I was thinking that when removing a breech plug, the clamping pressure from the vise should be just ahead of the threads of the breech plug. The clamping pressure can put pressure on the engagement of the threads and make removal more difficult. So, when placing the barrel in the vise for removal of the breech plug, measure to find the end of the threads of the breech plug and mark the barrel in order to clamp the barrel solidly in the vise and not press the barrel threads into the threads of the breech plug. Also, you will have confirmed that the barrel is not loaded.

When you use aluminum shim, you don’t need much pressure, just a few turns, no damage to the barrel or threads. The problem arises when you use steel vise jaws on a barrel.I learned this from Dave Stalvo at Lodgewood arms and Rice Barrel co.

 

[Grenadier1758]

We haven't used the aluminum shim. I'll have to pass this information along.

Thanks.