British Dueling pistols question

[jimhallam]

One important point is whether the "Hege Mantons" on offer are REAL ones: the SWISS company closed some time ago and the current "new" ones are made by Pedersoli. They are not as well finished but of course are made down to a price.
I bought a cased set years ago at the Baltimore show --- one .44" rifled barrel and a .45" smoothbore --- genuine Hege made. I was told that they made all of the barrel blanks as .44" -- - rifled some and bored the majority for smoothbore, as the MLAIC (International) Rules only allowed smoothbores.
Trying to shoot a flinter is hard enough -- the perceived knowledge was to use the heaviest charge. John Marsh (World Champion) used to say that all you had going for you was velocity -- so he used a REALLY tight patch-and-ball combination which had to be WALLOPED down. Having a rifled barrel so that you could use a much lighter charge allowed you the get the ignition right first, and THEN move onto the smoothbore.

In the USA the majority of repro flint pistols seem to be rifled - and certainly the standard "Kentucky" types are a lot cheaper, so are more affordable as well as easier to get a decent score. That was one reason why when I wrote the R&Rs for the various "Historic Arms Open Meetings" in the UK I added a class for rifled flint pistols to encourage their use.

One point to bear in mind is that the number of people who might want to shoot "replica flint pistol" in International Teams would be very small -- - and many would already have one. Some of them are now easing out of competition .... so that will also affect the market.
Last year Gerhard Lang, Secretary General of the MLAIC, told me that they were looking towards reducing the number of classes in their Matches --- (too many shooters / not enough volunteer workers?) --- and that will also have an effect.
However, there will always be a market for top quality firearms. The BULK market would be the USA as these would not be "firearms" under Federal Law. The problem in the UK is that as they would be made after 1st Sept. 1939 then they would not be classed as "antique" and would require a Firearm Certificate. Other countries have their own R&Rs, which may change according to political expediency.

The oncosts of a PAIR of pistols would be prohibitive... A number of years ago a British Company was interested in making (having made) a repro 54bore Tranter and borrowed several from me as patterns (including a Treble Action --- the pattern known incorrectly as "Tranter's Export Model"). They could have arranged that in Gardone (or elsewhere) and were looking at a Limited Edition of 1000, with 100 cased ones. They worked out that a correct pattern case, mould, flask and accessories would have MORE than doubled the price. I did try to persuade them that a production run of "Southron marked" ones would have sold well below the Mason-Dixon ( I am still convinced of that) but the project was shelved in favour of developing a side-by-side game gun (of "unmentionable" technology).

Best wishes for your project -- please get in touch if you think that I can help in any way

Jim H.

 

[GREENSWLDE]

Hi, B.B. Please PM me as I have a few 20b Dam barrels here . OLD DOG..

 

[Barrel Browner]

Thank you ultonia, will take a look.

 

[Barrel Browner]

One important point is whether the "Hege Mantons" on offer are REAL ones: the SWISS company closed some time ago and the current "new" ones are made by Pedersoli. They are not as well finished but of course are made down to a price.
I bought a cased set years ago at the Baltimore show --- one .44" rifled barrel and a .45" smoothbore --- genuine Hege made. I was told that they made all of the barrel blanks as .44" -- - rifled some and bored the majority for smoothbore, as the MLAIC (International) Rules only allowed smoothbores.
Trying to shoot a flinter is hard enough -- the perceived knowledge was to use the heaviest charge. John Marsh (World Champion) used to say that all you had going for you was velocity -- so he used a REALLY tight patch-and-ball combination which had to be WALLOPED down. Having a rifled barrel so that you could use a much lighter charge allowed you the get the ignition right first, and THEN move onto the smoothbore.

In the USA the majority of repro flint pistols seem to be rifled - and certainly the standard "Kentucky" types are a lot cheaper, so are more affordable as well as easier to get a decent score. That was one reason why when I wrote the R&Rs for the various "Historic Arms Open Meetings" in the UK I added a class for rifled flint pistols to encourage their use.

One point to bear in mind is that the number of people who might want to shoot "replica flint pistol" in International Teams would be very small -- - and many would already have one. Some of them are now easing out of competition .... so that will also affect the market.
Last year Gerhard Lang, Secretary General of the MLAIC, told me that they were looking towards reducing the number of classes in their Matches --- (too many shooters / not enough volunteer workers?) --- and that will also have an effect.
However, there will always be a market for top quality firearms. The BULK market would be the USA as these would not be "firearms" under Federal Law. The problem in the UK is that as they would be made after 1st Sept. 1939 then they would not be classed as "antique" and would require a Firearm Certificate. Other countries have their own R&Rs, which may change according to political expediency.

The oncosts of a PAIR of pistols would be prohibitive... A number of years ago a British Company was interested in making (having made) a repro 54bore Tranter and borrowed several from me as patterns (including a Treble Action --- the pattern known incorrectly as "Tranter's Export Model"). They could have arranged that in Gardone (or elsewhere) and were looking at a Limited Edition of 1000, with 100 cased ones. They worked out that a correct pattern case, mould, flask and accessories would have MORE than doubled the price. I did try to persuade them that a production run of "Southron marked" ones would have sold well below the Mason-Dixon ( I am still convinced of that) but the project was shelved in favour of developing a side-by-side game gun (of "unmentionable" technology).

Best wishes for your project -- please get in touch if you think that I can help in any way

Jim H.

Hi Jim, Great information a lot to think about for sure.

 

[Barrel Browner]

I took a few more pictures but will inspect the pistols more tomorrow.

 

[Rudyard]

Dear Barrel Browner. I've just sent you a PM (Private Message) .

Dear Old Dog tell me more re your old barrels PM be fine no rush cant see need most do nothing but condemn them But I much prefer them .All a matter of taste or lack of it .
Cheers Rudyard

 

[jimhallam]

I took a few more pictures but will inspect the pistols more tomorrow.View attachment 55063View attachment 55064View attachment 55066View attachment 55067

What PROOFMARKS are on the pistols?

 

[Barrel Browner]

Hi Jim not very clear but German proof I believe

 

[fleener]

I dont own a set of pistols and I am not a good pistol shooter. However I think they are work of art and I would someday like to buy a nice set.

If you have not done it already, go to websites like Rock Island Auction Company and Amoskeg Auction. I am always amazed at the number of original cased pistols that are for sale. Take a look to see what they are currently selling for in their past auctions.

For me, I would buy a nice set of originals if reproductions were roughly the same price.

I wish you the best of luck if you choose to move forward with that endeavor.

Fleener

 

[Barrel Browner]

Many thanks Fleener

 

[TFoley]

Anyone have any idea what the Hege Manton sell for. Or what they would have been new.

Yes, I know. Not a lot less than this price for one with a smooth and rifled barrel at Henry Kranks - £3500. That is ONE pistol, and two barrels, in case of confusion. And for information, Hege is a German company, not Swiss.

HEGE Jagd & Sport
Mengener Str. 38
88605 Messkirch
Germany
 +49 7575 2872
 Email us: [email protected]

 

[TFoley]

Hi Jim not very clear but German proof I believe

The proof looks like the half-antler of Ulm-am-Neckar Proof House. If it was Swiss it would have been Bern.

 

[Barrel Browner]

Thank you TFoley. these are two complete guns so like you say similar price, both of these are rifled.

 

[TFoley]

I'll be perfectly frank with your, Mr Barrel Browner, and say that having handled and fired a small number of the real deal, I'm less than impressed by the artificial perfection - machine-like, if you get my meaning - of the Pedersoli pistols. They seem to have visual beauty, right enough, but no soul in them.

 

[Barrel Browner]

TFoley, I agree with you I have worked on many of the old guns and they are very special it would be very hard to re create.

 

[TFoley]

Thank you TFoley. these are two complete guns so like you say similar price, both of these are rifled.

Sir, it is my belief, bolstered by the opinions and comments from an expert shooter in the field, Jim Hallam, that the idea of making a single pistol with one each barrel - rifled and smooth, seems more sensible that a pair of rifled pistols. As noted, the MLAIC does not permit rifled barrel flintlocks in competition, but maybe, if as I suspect, you are making them for the American market, where many shooters neither know nor care about what goes on elsewhere, you could make a pair of identical items.

The inevitable high cost is of little matter where items of such quality are concerned, or else we would not see the wonderful and expensive rifles and handguns made by the numerous world-class builders whose products grace these pages. Many of the guns we have been lucky enough to see here over the years have been into five figures, and the new owner never batted a hair.

 

[Barrel Browner]

Hi TFoley, I think we have a way of making them with some original Damascus tubes we have. It is certainly worth having a go. changing the subject slightly I purchased this a while back a four bore Damascus blank that was rescued from the cellars of the Birmingham gun quarter when part of it was demolished.

 

[mhb]

My 2 cents: Having handled and/or shot a fair number of original duellers, flint and percussion, the type I'd most like to see reproduced in the highest quality is the fullstock Wogdon flinter of, say, 28 bore, smooth. Of those I've handled, the Wogdons are, to me, the most perfect instrument ever made for their specific purpose. I'd be MOST interested in "another Wogdon case". A cased pair of flint British duellers of the period should be identical - and smoothbored.

mhb - MIke

 

[Rudyard]

Now That's' Damascus' twist not the usual plain if good twist barrels most erroneously call 'Damascus' .
Rudyard

 

[TFoley]

My 2 cents: Having handled and/or shot a fair number of original duellers, flint and percussion, the type I'd most like to see reproduced in the highest quality is the fullstock Wogdon flinter of, say, 28 bore, smooth. Of those I've handled, the Wogdons are, to me, the most perfect instrument ever made for their specific purpose. I'd be MOST interested in "another Wogdon case". A cased pair of flint British duellers of the period should be identical - and smoothbored. mhb - MIke

Unless, of course, they might have 'French' or concealed rifling [a short section of rifling from the breech to about a third or halfway down the bore, undetectable to the usual examination. Sometimes called, if VERY slight - 'scratch rifling'. Not that I know anything about that kind of thing......