British Dueling pistols question

[TFoley]

Hi TFoley, I think we have a way of making them with some original Damascus tubes we have. It is certainly worth having a go. changing the subject slightly I purchased this a while back a four bore Damascus blank that was rescued from the cellars of the Birmingham gun quarter when part of it was demolished.

What beautiful figuring!!!!!

And less of the TFoley - call me tac like most everybody else does.

 

[mhb]

Unless, of course, they might have 'French' or concealed rifling [a short section of rifling from the breech to about a third or halfway down the bore, undetectable to the usual examination. Sometimes called, if VERY slight - 'scratch rifling'. Not that I know anything about that kind of thing......

Tac:

I'm confident that no British Gentleman would ever contemplate or condone such a base and deceitful practice. I'm equally confident that Wogdon would never have stooped so low. The French, on the other hand...
As a practical matter, having shot smoothbore flintlock pistols fairly extensively at duelling distances, I feel there would be little or no useful advantage gained from whatever minor improvement in accuracy might be achieved.

"Hail Wogdon! Patron of that leaden death
Which waits alike the bully and the brave.
As well might Art recall departed breath
As any artifice your victims save."

mhb - MIke

 

[TFoley]

My experience, such as it is, is similar to yours, although much less extensively, for certain. In my case I found that a .54calibre ball from an original smoothbore Lancer's pistol with 60gr behind it to help it on its way went to almost the very same spot on the duelling target as a .45cal patched ball with 25gr.

The commotion was somewhat less on the PRB, true, but the fun was just the same. Coming UP to the point, rather than what would have happened in the old days - coming down - made a deal of difference. Both targets got a third nostril.

 

[jimhallam]

Hi BB
The current HEGE company IS German, but the original one was Swiss. As TAC says, there is a significant difference in the quality of the products -- - albeit that there is not much difference in the price ;-(
Might I suggest that for a "shooting set" although the Damascus would look great the oncost would kill the market --- why not think of a 3 tier system --- Very limited edition cased top quality pairs - smoothbore ; single fancy pistol -- possibly 2 barrels**; "production run" with standard steel barrels, plain named lockplate (? lined out on the flats?) but proper checquering to the butt. ?

** rifled LINER in one Damascus tube.

Your problem is going to be getting the price down to a realistic level, as many ML shooters are almost as parsimonious as smallbore target-shooters ;-) and the "recreational" shooters will go for the Kentucky-type repros.

I agree with the comments about the pointability of Wogdons, but a TARGET shooter will put many more rounds through and the extra weight will help with stability on aim -- no need for a FAST shot when the opponent is a paper target.

BTW, BB --- is the first letter of your family name a "J" ?

 

[TFoley]

The market outside the UK, I predict, would be far more likely to take you up on your plans. A number of European countries count BP single-shot firearms as non-guns. As pointed out earlier, BP arms are not even 'firearms' in the US of A. The crunch here in UK is that, as noted, any replica MADE after 1938/9 is automatically a live firearm of one kind or the other [Section 1 - rifled, section 2, smooth] but ANY pistol, even if it is a smoothbore, is counted as the same as a rifled gun of any kind. A pair = TWO Section 1 firearms - that is, sad to even admit it, one more than many gun owners in the UK actually own.

In the USA where almost any Joe can amble into a gun store and walk out laden to the point of staggering, with any BP gun, the sales will be different. Notwithstanding Mr Hallam's comment about parsimoniousness, I think you'll find them being ripped out of your hands by the many thousands of collectors of fine guns stateside.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Several British makers were guilty of including "scratch rifling" in their pistols. Wogdon made some rifled coach and officer's pistols. The barrels of most British duelers during their heyday were not Damascus but "watered" iron and stub twist. Wogdon used watered iron barrels mostly, which are made from horseshoe nails (stubs) but welded with a straight longitudinal seam. Stub twist are also all iron (unlike Damascus) but welded in a spiral. I agree, Wogdon's pistols are a delight to shoot and handle but I fully understand the value of heavier barrels for target shooting. I have most components for building two more cased pairs of duelers. One will be another pair of Wogdon's with either full octagon swamped smooth bored barrels or his earlier round "French" form. and the other will be an early pair of Twigg's using octagon to round barrels. Those barrels were hand rifled by Hugh Toenjes and have outer Damascus shells around a modern rifled liner. My biggest hurdle are the locks. I can get castings of originals from E. J. Blackley but they were so unreliable during my last order, which I never received, that I am gun shy to try again.
dave

 

[TFoley]

Hi,
Several British makers were guilty of including "scratch rifling" in their pistols. Wogdon made some rifled coach and officer's pistols. The barrels of most British duelers during their heyday were not Damascus but "watered" iron and stub twist. Wogdon used watered iron barrels mostly, which are made from horseshoe nails (stubs) but welded with a straight longitudinal seam. Stub twist are also all iron (unlike Damascus) but welded in a spiral. I agree, Wogdon's pistols are a delight to shoot and handle but I fully understand the value of heavier barrels for target shooting. I have most components for building two more cased pairs of duelers. One will be another pair of Wogdon's with either full octagon swamped smooth bored barrels or his earlier round "French" form. and the other will be an early pair of Twigg's using octagon to round barrels. Those barrels were hand rifled by Hugh Toenjes and have outer Damascus shells around a modern rifled liner. My biggest hurdle are the locks. I can get castings of originals from E. J. Blackley but they were so unreliable during my last order, which I never received, that I am gun shy to try again.
dave

I wouldn't bother at all, TBH. I'm still awaiting a couple of parts to complete a Queen Anne turn-off barrel pistol kit I bought about thirty years back.........

 

[mhb]

At the risk of overstating the case, most of the potential buyers of fine reproduction flintlock pistols are well aware of the differences between duelling pistols and target pistols. There are many modern reproduction target pistols, some of which are pretty fair copies of the originals, and capable of very fine accuracy. What is not readily available is a cased set of fine quality reproduction flint duelling pistols, and that is what I am hoping to see in the not distant future. I can shoot my Hege-Siber anytime I wish, and compete with anything else available, but I'd really like to have a set of duellers which I can shoot with less concern than is the case with my J. Probin original. I don't plan to retire the Probin, but do have considerable respect for its 2 centuries- plus age.

mhb - MIke

 

[TFoley]

Dear Mr Barrel Browner, it would seem that you have your very first customer - Mr mhb right above this post. He writes it right there - 'I'd really like to have a set of duellers', and 'the type I'd most like to see reproduced in the highest quality is the fullstock Wogdon flinter'.

Can't be plainer than that.

Mr mhb is himself a barrel and rifle maker, so you'll have a lot to do to impress him, although I have no doubt that you'll be able to do just that.

I earnestly suggest that you get talking to each other as soon as possible.

We'd all like to see what you end up with, please, Mr mhb.

tac

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
I had the pleasure of handling and examining several fine British dueling pistols before I built my first set inspired by Wogdon. Most were 19th century heavy barreled, half stocked pistols by makers including John Manton and Innes. One even had a spurred trigger guard. I hated the way they handled. They were so muzzle heavy. Then I handled a pair of full stocked Wogdon's and I was in heaven. The balance and feel was superior to any of the others.

Barrel Browner, I don't mean to distract this thread but I wanted to mention these tutorials I posted on another forum discussing building a period correct pistol case inspired by those used by Wogdon.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=5339.0https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=5359.0https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=5369.0https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=6416.0https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=6417.0They contain information that is not available anywhere else on the internet as far as I know. I posted them in 2009. The only changes I make today is that I would definitely use hide or pearl glue for the lining instead of the 3-M spray adhesive and what I originally thought were finger joints were actually hand cut dovetails. The hand cut dove tails are so subtle that they look like finger joints through 200 years of crud build up and finish darkening. I also discuss using proper woolen baize fabric by Abimeloch Hainesworth, a company founded in the 18th century and still alive today. They are a delight to do business with.

dave

 

[Flinty Scot]

Barrel Browner,To look at another corner of BP shooting entirely, that end on barrel seems tailor made for a great chunk gun.

 

[mhb]

As a potential customer (see Tac's comments, above) I'd recommend that a potential builder of Wogdon duellers look closely at Dave Person's pair. If you can match the obvious quality Dave built into his pistols, I'm definitely interested. I would be happy to provide the details and measurements of the pair I handled previously, and examined closely with the intention of having them reproduced, should I find a capable and willing builder. I have a friend who could certainly do the work, but he is already over-extended, and the quality of his craftsmanship makes it unlikely that he will ever find the time to take on my project. Also, the originals and, apparently, Dave's pair have twist-pattern barrels, as does my Probin: an accurate reproduction of the Wogdons should also have such barrels. I hope BB will carry on with his stated intention to make quality reproductions, and that he may take all the encouragement offered in this thread as evidence that his efforts are appreciated.

mhb - MIke

 

[Rudyard]

Dear Flinty while that big barrel might answer for a chunk gun. It dosnt meet the qualifications its not rough enough or ugly enough.! Cant let the side down. One has to keep normal standards you know ..
In jest . Regards Rudyard

 

[Barrel Browner]

A big thank you to all for all the comments advice etc. certainly a lot to think about. best regards to all Paul