brown bess id help

[ldp82]

Hi all,
this forum is a great resource, I am glad to have found it. Long story short. When my father was a boy his parents took him to London and they bought a Brown Bess that was sold as a cavalry carbine. My father is a little fuzzy on the details as it was ~50 years ago. I was hoping by posting some pictures I could get some more information about this Bess and maybe a better idea of its age. I have measured the gun and have a picture of the end of the barrel with what i think is no provision for a bayonet but it has a site near the end and the butt of the musket unfortunately Ileft the pictures at home but can post them tonight. Thank you

in this first picture I have circled the parts that have given me some issues I have not seen them all together on any other Bess

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1 by ldp82, on Flickr[/img]

this was on the butt of the gun:

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2 by ldp82, on Flickr[/img]

trigger guard:

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3 by ldp82, on Flickr[/img]

ramrod housing:

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4 by ldp82, on Flickr[/img]

top view:

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5 by ldp82, on Flickr[/img]

other side:

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6 by ldp82, on Flickr[/img]

proof marks:

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7 by ldp82, on Flickr[/img]

more proof marks:

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8 by ldp82, on Flickr[/img]

lettering by trigger:

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9 by ldp82, on Flickr[/img]

 

[ldp82]

more pix:

the full gun:

[/url] 10 by ldp82, on Flickr[/img]

more of the stock:

[/url] 11 by ldp82, on Flickr[/img]

even more:

[/url] 12 by ldp82, on Flickr[/img]

any info on this musket would be much appreciated!

 

[Lorne Johnson]

In picture 8, the crown over V is a London view mark (or preliminary proof mark), the crown over CP is a London final-proof mark. You'll get a lot more information from others.

 

[vtbuck223]

Certainly looks like an early 1800's Eliott Light Dragoon Carbine. Interesting characteristics that you have pointed out. Hopefully someone has some suggestions....thanks for sharing the pics.

 

[ldp82]

Thanks for the info and tips guys. I was looking at the Dragoon Carbine and some seem to be the closest yet but not quite right.

I will keep looking maybe I haven't stumbled across the right one yet.

 

[rickystl]

Nice gun, and nice condition too!!. :thumbsup:

 

[vtbuck223]

As you probably already know the heart symbol is that of the United East India Company. Have you done further research on that?

 

[ldp82]

I did look the United East India Company logo symbol up but have not seen one quite like this the ones i have seen are a more quartered heart where this one has softer curves.

 

[vtbuck223]

My guess is that it was originally produced for the United East India Company (I believe they were in operation until around 1798) and was among those that were purchased by the British Government when war broke out in 1793. This probably explains why it also has the broad arrow mark and why it doesn't conform to a strict pattern. Also the trigger guard appears to be similar to that of a British India Pattern carbine.

 

[ldp82]

i think your onto something although I'm still not finding some details this gun has on the web.

on another note google is too fast as I am now finding these pictures when I search for more info!

 

[TommyKid]

http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/forums/4/British-Flint-and-Percussion-Arms

Post your photos here. There are several guys here that really know their stuff.
Tom

 

[ldp82]

thanks for the link I will see what they have to say.

I found more markings on the stock behind the trigger guard. more crowns and the name HOMER

[/url] 10 by ldp82, on Flickr[/img]


11 by ldp82, on Flickr

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
It is the storekeepers mark of the East India Company, which differs from their stamp on the lock.

dave

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Thomas Homer was a contractor to the East India Company 1809-1842. The gun is certainly an East India carbine modeled after the Elliot. It may have seen British Army service during the Napoleanic Wars since I think the government bought arms from the company during that time.

dave

 

[ldp82]

thanks for your help Dave! This seems like a very plausible answer. One question, how strictly did they stick to patterns? While I agree with you I have yet to see anything resembling a "clone" of this gun.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
That is a good question. I don't know how strictly the EIC followed patterns and how much leeway they gave their contractors depending on price. Also, there might have been a war emergency involved that affected production of strict patterns if they were desperate for guns.

dave