Brown Bess Trigger Job (?)

[shaman]

I have to say, one of my least favorite parts of my Pedersoli Brown Bess is the trigger. Is there anyone out there doing trigger jobs? Drop-in replacement triggers? Double triggers? Just wondering.

 

[2 shots]

lock dont have a fly, so no double set. likely half lock, half trigger issue. lock can be tuned, trigger pin can be relocated. maybe lock needs some grease.might help some.

 

[Phil Coffins]

A brown Bess is a military musket, a heavy trigger is to be expected. The sights are crude and it’s big and heavy, maybe you picked the wrong gun for your needs?

 

[Rifleman1776]

A brown Bess is a military musket, a heavy trigger is to be expected. The sights are crude and it’s big and heavy, maybe you picked the wrong gun for your needs?

As always, Phil is right on point. And, if you intend to get into serious reenacting you might find a certain weight trigger pull to be required. If that is not the case, you can lighten the pull, or just the perceived pull by tuning it yourself. The BB lock is simple and large. A couple small stones can be used to smooth up the trigger and sear surfaces that touch. A little removal of metal at a time is important. Don't make it too light, you can't put the metal back on. For jobs like this (and, I'm far from an expert) I like using the flat Ez Lap diamond tools. They are about the size of a tongue depressor and last a lifetime.

 

[pacanis]

My stock BB trigger makes my recently purchased KY rifle's trigger feel like a bench rest trigger.

But they are easy enough to lighten yourself. I found the biggest difference maker being the sear spring. Just do a search and include zonie as the member. I think it was zonie anyway.

And while you can't put metal back, sear springs are relatively cheap to replace. A rule of thumb (that someone told me) is to remove 30% to achieve a noticeable difference. But my trigger pull was off the pull gauge and wouldn't even register. I ended up removing more.

But you should check how the trigger pulls first without the lock installed. Just to make sure nothing is rubbing on wood.
And how the lock operates by itself. Don't just dive in without checking a few things out.

 

[Artificer]

Reducing the Trigger Pull Weight on a Brown Bess is done the same way as on large Military Civil War era percussion locks. Unfortunately, a link to a great N-SSA article on reducing trigger pull from the Northwest Territory no longer works.

At most you can get from reducing the Sear Spring is 1/2 lb of weight or maybe at most 1 lb. and that depends on the spring. If your trigger pull weight is the normal 8 to 14 lbs, you will barely notice the difference on a Brown Bess lock. (I only reduce the sear spring on original locks because those spring weights are much more compared to repro sear springs.)

You have to first ensure the outer edge of the half cock notch is not quite as far from the center of the tumbler arbor as the full cock notch. This may be ok or you may have to reduce it a bit. It will NOT decrease trigger pull, but it helps ensure the sear won't hit the half cock and especially when you begin reducing trigger pull weight. IF you reduce the distance of the full cock notch, which I DO NOT RECOMMEND for most amateurs, then you MUST remember to keep reducing the half cock notch as well. I have seen way too many people mess up the tumbler on their locks by reducing the full cock notch too far, which is why I'm strongly against it for most people. The half clock notch is the bottom notch as shown in the pic below.

The full cock notch, shown in the above pic going upwards counterclockwise/towards the right side beyond the lower half cock notch, often has to be slightly altered so the full cock face is perpendicular to the center of the tumbler arbor or just SLIGHTLY to the rear from perpendicular one or two degrees at most. I think you can see the full cock notch angle in the tumbler above is much more than that, because it is a military lock and that's how they were designed. However, when the notch angle is this great, the trigger pull will continue to get heavy until the sear releases because it is actually cocking the cock on a flint lock or hammer on a percussion lock.

Going still more counterclockwise up and to the right from the face of the full cock notch, notice the curved area of the tumbler? Trust me, I've seen a host of ways that surface is built up so the sear face cannot go as deep into the full cock notch to reduce trigger pulls. I won't go into all the ways, but the two easiest ways are 1. SOFT Solder a strip of brass or steel shim stock you cut and pre-bend to match the curve using NON LEAD soft solder and 2. Drill and tap a hole and loc tite a screw that sticks up just a bit from the surface.

Soft soldering brass or shim stock will need normally a .015" thick piece of shim stock to at most maybe a .018" thick piece. I much prefer to reduce trigger pull weight this way, myself. When the shim stock is too thick and thus gives you too light of a trigger pull, you can file it down a bit to increase the trigger pull weight a little at a time, once it is soldered on. The worst that can happen is if you don't do a proper soft solder job, the shim will fall off and the trigger will be heavy again.

There are a number of other things one has to check when doing trigger jobs, but these are the most important for a Bess, just to give you some idea of what the work entails.

Gus

 

[Britsmoothy]

I stoned my tumbler and sear on mine. Didn't take much.
Didn't make a match grade trigger but made it lighter on the finger and aided follow through.

 

[shaman]

Are there any smiths that specialize in this work? I'm still getting over Chemo and I don't have the proper feeling in my hands to do this.

Phil Collins: A brown Bess is a military musket, a heavy trigger is to be expected. The sights are crude and it’s big and heavy, maybe you picked the wrong gun for your needs?

Just because it’s a bad idea doesn’t mean it won’t be fun!

I included Phil's tagline, because I think it fits. Everything about the Brown Bess is inappropriate for my needs. That is what makes it fun. Phil's right. If a 30 lb trigger pull is what it takes, I'm willing to work with it. I'm just looking at my options here.

I have a KAR 98 Mauser that somebody tried to sporterize back in the 70s-- I call it The Mauser From Hell, because it took so long and cost so much to get fixed. It was minute of bushel-basket at best. However, replacing the stock trigger with a Timney cured a big part of its problems. Today, it's easily the most accurate of my deer rifles.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Gus gave you the complete answer for a Pedersoli Bess. For any guys who lightened their Bess triggers, check the lip of the halfcock notch from time to time to make sure the sear is not mashing it every time you fire. This is also true for Miroku Bess locks. I have one now on the bench that needs the half cock notch repaired because of trigger lightening. Don't for any reason stone down the height of the full cock notch unless you also adjust the height of the half cock notch as well. Gus's shim method is the best and easiest choice if you don't fully understand tumbler and sear geometry.

dave

 

[Britsmoothy]

I neve stone anything but the angle of incidence between tumble and sear.
More often than not with most trigger systems one is momentarily camming back the main spring hence the weight!

 

[barracudadave67]

I second Gus' method, of soldering on brass at the full cock notch on the tumbler. I have done that on all my C. W. Muskets. it works, and lasts.

If you try it, use "Silver Solder". I have an ole electric soldering iron that I use just for this kind of work.

Dave

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

Reducing the Trigger Pull Weight on a Brown Bess is done the same way as on large Military Civil War era percussion locks. Unfortunately, a link to a great N-SSA article on reducing trigger pull from the Northwest Territory no longer works.

At most you can get from reducing the Sear Spring is 1/2 lb of weight or maybe at most 1 lb. and that depends on the spring. If your trigger pull weight is the normal 8 to 14 lbs, you will barely notice the difference on a Brown Bess lock. (I only reduce the sear spring on original locks because those spring weights are much more compared to repro sear springs.)

You have to first ensure the outer edge of the half cock notch is not quite as far from the center of the tumbler arbor as the full cock notch. This may be ok or you may have to reduce it a bit. It will NOT decrease trigger pull, but it helps ensure the sear won't hit the half cock and especially when you begin reducing trigger pull weight. IF you reduce the distance of the full cock notch, which I DO NOT RECOMMEND for most amateurs, then you MUST remember to keep reducing the half cock notch as well. I have seen way too many people mess up the tumbler on their locks by reducing the full cock notch too far, which is why I'm strongly against it for most people. The half clock notch is the bottom notch as shown in the pic below.

View attachment 203076
The full cock notch, shown in the above pic going upwards counterclockwise/towards the right side beyond the lower half cock notch, often has to be slightly altered so the full cock face is perpendicular to the center of the tumbler arbor or just SLIGHTLY to the rear from perpendicular one or two degrees at most. I think you can see the full cock notch angle in the tumbler above is much more than that, because it is a military lock and that's how they were designed. However, when the notch angle is this great, the trigger pull will continue to get heavy until the sear releases because it is actually cocking the cock on a flint lock or hammer on a percussion lock.

Going still more counterclockwise up and to the right from the face of the full cock notch, notice the curved area of the tumbler? Trust me, I've seen a host of ways that surface is built up so the sear face cannot go as deep into the full cock notch to reduce trigger pulls. I won't go into all the ways, but the

Gus

Gus,
This is all good info, but help me out if you will? You say pulls, and I take that as poundage. My understanding is the shimming will reduce travel. Please advise.
Larry

 

[Artificer]

Gus,
This is all good info, but help me out if you will? You say pulls, and I take that as poundage. My understanding is the shimming will reduce travel. Please advise.
Larry

Hi Larry,

YES indeed, shimming the tumbler does reduce the sear travel AND the trigger pull weight, both at the same time.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

I second Gus' method, of soldering on brass at the full cock notch on the tumbler. I have done that on all my C. W. Muskets. it works, and lasts.

If you try it, use "Silver Solder". I have an ole electric soldering iron that I use just for this kind of work.

Dave

I learned this from a mentor in the N-SSA in the early 1980's who taught me how to do trigger jobs on original and repro Smith Carbines. Then I adapted it to rifle muskets, rifles, other carbines and even revolvers when I did trigger jobs on them. Now, I was not the first to do it on the other arms by a long shot, though.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Folks, I just went back and edited my original post in the description of adding too thick of a shim and what to do about it. I did this because I realized my first description was not completely correct. Sorry about the confusion, but I got it fixed now.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

I neve stone anything but the angle of incidence between tumble and sear.
More often than not with most trigger systems one is momentarily camming back the main spring hence the weight!

Exactly! The very best angle for the full cock notch is parallel to the center of the tumbler arbor so this doesn't happen. The further back it angles, as the way it was originally made, the more you are cocking the cock or hammer as you pull the trigger.

Gus

 

[Britsmoothy]

Personally I don't agree with adding any soft shims to the tumbler.
I prefer full sear engagement but stone the angle's.
Decreasing the engagement is treating the symptom not the cause.

 

[Artificer]

Personally I don't agree with adding any soft shims to the tumbler.
I prefer full sear engagement but stone the angle's.
Decreasing the engagement is treating the symptom not the cause.

The first thing I suggested is correcting the angle of the full cock notch.

I did not mention this earlier, but next I modify the angle of the sear face for optimal engagement. If the top of the sear face angle is too far forward, the sear face digs into the full cock notch and increases trigger pull weight or makes it feel terrible. If the top of the sear face angle is too far to the rear, it won't reliably hold the tumbler and can slip off unintentionally. However, for most people adjustments like that are far beyond their ability without having a mentor to show/guide them. The reason for this is there is no "best" exact sear face angle on a military lock for most tumblers as there are too many variations. (I experimented with my expensive Powers Adjustable Sear Stoning Jig to ascertain this.) So, one almost always is required to adjust the sear face to the tumbler in the lock individually. However, I've seen way too many people screw up a sear face before they improve it, so I don't suggest most people attempt it. At most for most people, smoothing the sear face with an Arkansas stone while not changing the angle is about all they should attempt.

However, even when the full cock notch and sear face are in optimal angles and for most large military lock repro's, the trigger pull weight is going to be between 6 and 6 1/2 lbs. Now that's a definite improvement over the normal 8 to 12 lbs. from the factory, but still too heavy for most competition and many other shooters/hunters who are used to trigger pulls in the range of 2-3 lbs with double set triggers.

So how far down can you safely go in the trigger pull weight of Brown Bess or other large military locks without a fly in the tumbler and no set triggers?

International Muzzleloading regulations on trigger pull -
3.16 Trigger Pull - All military long arms shall have a minimum trigger pull of 3 lbs. All other muzzle loading arms are required to have a safe, functional trigger.

North South Skirmish Association regulations for all long arms, minimum 3 pounds and for Revolvers 2 lbs.

Now I won't set up a trigger pull weight of right at the minimum 3 lbs on a large military lock, because it won't last. I set them up at a very minimum of 3 1/4 to 3 1/2 lbs and that's only on originals or real Birmingham made Parker Hale Enfields, because of the quality of those parts. For most repro locks, I've found right at 4 to 4 1/4 lbs gives a very good trigger pull and will last a very long time. I've also found every person who feels that weight of trigger pull is entirely preferred over the 6 and 6 1/2 lb trigger pulls from adjusting/stoning the angles alone. The only practical way to achieve such trigger pull weights is to reduce the sear travel, unless one welds up the full cock notch and doesn't cut the full cock as deep as normal.

BTW these trigger pull weights are checked with certified trigger weights like the ones in the link below, that are required by International and NSSA competitions.
https://www.brownells.com/tools-cle...nra-official-universal-trigger-weight-system/
Gus

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I have to say, one of my least favorite parts of my Pedersoli Brown Bess is the trigger. Is there anyone out there doing trigger jobs? Drop-in replacement triggers? Double triggers? Just wondering.

Gus has the procedure for doing a full-on adjustment. When necessary, it's very good, when it's very well done. Caution should be exercised by any doing this for the first time, especially without an experienced person to guide them.

However, before doing this two things must be checked. First, I've had lads with "bad triggers" on the Bess, but it wasn't the lock. I've had more than one "heavy trigger" turn out to be the wood in the stock interfering with the seer and the trigger bar. When installed into the stock, the sear lever sits in an open space, crossing the space from right to left. The trigger bar when the trigger is depressed, presses upwards against the sear lever. Check to be sure the tip of sear lever isn't in slight contact with the wood on the inside of the stock. The friction of the sear lever tip against the wood can be quite severe, AND it can vary depending on the local humidity. Candle soot is great for use as a marking material. Also check the channel where the trigger moves, for friction or blocking there.

Second, sometimes it's just a little roughness of the parts, and sometimes it's screw tension. Before using any stones, take some emory paper, a flat metal file, and some oil. Wrap the file with the emory papery, rough side out. Add oil to the emory paper and polish the sides of the sear where the sear rubs against the lock plate, and against the internal bridle. The emory paper with the file makes it easy to handle and control. After polishing, reassemble the lock, but when done, back off the sear screw a quarter turn. Then reinstall the lock into the stock, and try the trigger. You may find that the screw being back off that tiny bit, keeps the lock from going back in flush with the stock..., which means a tiny amount of wood needs to be removed.

IF the trigger is still bad, and you have also checked for wood binding on the sear lever and the trigger's movement.., only then..., use the same emory paper, oil, and a file to polish the surface of the lock tumbler. Want to just make it a tad shiny. You must use the paper around the file to keep the angle and the edge of the full cock notch intact, and you're just removing possible corrosion, not actually changing anything.

After doing this, if the trigger is still poor, then you need the professional adjustment.

LD

 

[shaman]

With the neuropathy in my fingers, I'm pretty sure these adjustments are a bit beyond my capabilities.

Does anyone know a smith that you'd trust to make the modifications? Could I just mail off the lock?

I'm still trying to decide if I want to do this. I can make the shot as it is. I'm going to keep working at it for now. I'd just like to know what's possible.