Browning Hawkens

I've been searching muzzleloading forum and I haven't seen anything mentioned about the Brownings. Back in 1981 I traded off my CVA Hawkens and picked up the Browning 50 caliber percussion. The rifle shot extremely well and reminded me of the GPR. I was just wondering if anybody here still had one?

 

[Stumpkiller]

A friend of mine had a Browning and a 'twin' Ithaca Hawken. Close enough that thay might have come out of the same door. IMHO the best factory produced Hawkens, probably better than the originals. Last I knew his oldest son still had them. The Brownings used to show up occasionally (I wanted one but ended up with the T/C because of $), but the Ithaca was the only one I ever had, or have, seen - and the Ithaca Gun Co. is under an hour away.

 

[Jay Gardner]

As of last Wednesday evening (04/07) there was one in the Gun Room at Cabela's in Dundee, MI. I don't recall the price. I have seen 2-3 there in the past year. I believe the price has usually been $750-$800, but I could be wrong.

 

[RussB]

A friend of mine had a Browning and a 'twin' Ithaca Hawken......but the Ithaca was the only one I eve had, or have, seen - and the Ithaca Gun Co. is under an hour away.

I owned an Ithaca once, back in the late 1960's / early 70's. It was in .50cal with a 1:48 twist if memory serves me right. Back then $375.00 was a lot of money, and I do mean a lot. Probably my worst example of "squandering" good hard earned cash, but I saw it, and I had to have it, if you know what I mean.
Don't recall anything special about the way she shot, but she was one fine looking rifle. Excellent wood, beautiful finish, good wood to metal, everything you could ask for. I haven't seen or heard of one in probably twenty years. Are they still made? This post got me to thinking as to where I might get another one. If someone knows anything about these rifles I would appreciate hearing it.
Respectfully, Russ

 

[gordy]

I have seen at least two on auctionarms in the last several months,the starting prices were in the $600.00 range with reserve?? Diddn't watch to see what the last bid priceses were.Thease were the Browning Mountain Rifle,is this the same gun Your talking about?or did they also sell a Hawkens model "not" called the Mountain Rifle? I've always had great respect for Browning guns,but I think I would go for a Brown Bess or[url] N.W.Trade[/url] Gun if I had that kind of money to spend! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif ::

 

Mine was a Mountain Rifle, were talking 20 years ago i just said hawkens because of the style.

 

[Stumpkiller]

[quoteI haven't seen or heard of one in probably twenty years. Are they still made? This post got me to thinking as to where I might get another one. If someone knows anything about these rifles I would appreciate hearing it.
Respectfully, Russ [/quote]

Unfortunately, Ithaca Gun has had some hard times. They've bottomed out twice since the early 80's. Right now they're in business, but operating out of an old school in Kings Ferry instead of the old site in Ithaca (which is an environmental hazard site due to a hundred years plus of test firing lead into a gorge). The employees bought out the name and machinery but, to my knowledge, are only turning out a couple models of shotguns. Ithaca dropped their rifles and black powder line back in the 70's, I think.

 

[RussB]

Thanks Charlie, That is not good news, but I would imagine the still produce the Mdl 37 shotgun, and that was always a good one.
Others have mentioned the Browning Mountain rifle as possibly being the same....I don't think so. At least not like the one I owned. It was a "Hawken" in every sense. The patchbox, and trigger guard, was a very heavy brass, along with the thimbles and forend. The only way I can think to describe it is "classic", and well built.
My son-in-law seems to think that at that time and period, both the Ithaca and the Browning were made in Italy by the same company. Again,....I don't think so. But I could be very wrong on this. I was very surprised a few years ago when I found out Lyman rifles were made by InvestArms in Italy. This could well be the case again. Back in those days American names meant they were made in America, or so we thought.
Respectfully, Russ

 

[Zonie]

As I recall, the Browning Mountain Rifle was a fairly good recreation of the rifle John Browning made. I will admit I can't find the book that told me this but I read it somewhere.

Getting to a book I can find, in the 18th Edition of The Blue Book of Gun Values (which is the last edition with both modern arms and black powder guns) says this:

JONATHAN BROWNING MOUNTAIN RIFLE--50 cal., precussion, 30 in. octagon barrel, single set trigger, engraved lock plate, select walnut stock, cased with medallion and powder horn, 1000 mfg. in 1978. Issue price--$650 100% $750, 98% $595, 95% $400

MOUNTAIN RIFLE--similar to Jonathan Browning Mountain Rifle, without Centennial embellishments, not cased. Also in .45 or .54 cal. 100% $450, 98% $375, 95% $275.

This was published in 1997.

 

[Herb]

Layne Simpson wrote "Hunting Loads for the .50 Muzzleloader" in Rifle Magazine No. 70, Jul-Aug 1980. He used the Jonathan Browning mountain rifle, which had a 30 inch barrel and a 1-62 inch twist. He used Pyrodex RS to test round balls, 250 and 320 grain REALs, and 350 Lee target slugs and 370 grain maxis. He liked this rifle very much. With a .490 round ball, he used up to 120 grains of RS to get 2,139 fps. Hodgdon tested the same load in their pressure gun and got 2,160 fps. Wolfe Publishing Company magazine has this as a back issue. This is a really good article.

 

Unless I'm mistaken the Ithaca Hawken style rifle and the Johnathan Browning Mountain rifle were the same gun marketed by different companies. Perhaps some research is due here. Browning hasn't made firearms in this country in quite a few years and I believe Ithaca has only recently begun manufacture again.....say in the last 3-5 years.

I have an Ithaca pre-war double in 16 ga.(general consensus is that Ithaca didn't manufacture any doubles after WWII), and my brother-in-law hunts with a Mod 37 in 12 ga. from the late 50's. Both are fine examples of the shotgun makers art.

Vic

 

[swquiro]

There is right now a .54 Browning Mtn. rifle on[url] GunBroker.com[/url] auction. Item #17822485. Minimum bid is $400. Barrel was shortened to 26"

 

[Jay Gardner]

I believe Ithaca has only recently begun manufacture again.....say in the last 3-5 years.

I would not say that it was Ithaca that began manufacturing SxS guns again, it was a fellow who licensed the name. The guns were spectacular, as they should be starting at over $3,000 and heading up fast. Alas, the reserection ended last year when the company manufacturing the "Ithacas" closed and filed for protection under the laws of the Bankruptcy courts. There were more than a few fellows who lost HUGE deposits they had placed on guns that were (and still are) unfinished. All of the equipment used in the manufacturing process was sold to another US manufacturer of high-grade guns, Dakota. You can get into a Dakota SxS for about $10K.

One other US company currently making shotguns is Connecticut Valley owned and operated by Tony Galazan. Galazan makes over/unders starting about $35,000 w/out engraving. He also started making new A.H. Fox shotguns in 1994 and new Winchester M21's about 3-years ago. These guns will set you back about starting at about $10,000 and for $16,000 you have a very nice looking SxS.

Ruger just started shipping a SxS within the past month (after 3-years of advertising the guns). Their Gold Label is a 12 ga. and is about $1,600, but good luck trying to find one.

American doubles have been priced out of sight for years but they just keep getting more expensive. Winchester M21's, Parkers, Foxes, Ithaca's, L.C. Smiths are all in high demand.

That's a brief summary of the status of American shotguns today.

 

[swquiro]

We are getting maybe a bit far afield here. The older American side-by-sides are fetching sky-high prices because of their collectibility, or, they just ain't making them anymore. Or, you can order up a bespoke gun from Galazan or Dakota if you happen to be a member of that club, which I ain't. The best deal today in a side-by-side are higher end Spanish guns, which, for the most part, are copies of the English game gun, at a fraction of the price. I went to Eibar in the Basque Country not quite 5 years ago and ordered up a beautiful Ugartechea, and the trip, gun, shipping and customs duty set me back less than 3K. Now that the dollar is in the dumps the same would cost over 4K. But still a damnsight cheaper than Galazan or Dakota.

 

[RussB]

Unless I'm mistaken the Ithaca Hawken style rifle and the Johnathan Browning Mountain rifle were the same gun marketed by different companies. Perhaps some research is due here. Browning hasn't made firearms in this country in quite a few years and I believe Ithaca has only recently begun manufacture again.....say in the last 3-5 years.

Vic

For the past couple of weeks I have read every thing I could get my hands on, and asked a lot of questions, trying to determine if the Browning Mountain rifle, and the Ithaca Hawken were, in fact, from the same manufacturer. Seems everyone has their own answer on this subject, but it would appear from "asking" the answer is "Yes, they are", and I can't find anything in writing that says one way or the other. So, perhaps they were???
I do wish I still owned that Ithaca Hawken,
Russ

 

[hawkeye2]

The Ithaca Hawkens were made in Italy and probably were the 2nd. best mass produced Hawken ever made. Navy Arms bought this model from Ithaca and the quality went down fast and then they were gone forever. I have handled a lot of Browning Mountain Rifles and have never seen a brass mounted one, don't think they ever made one. The BMR was quite plain and authentic looking with good lines and just reeked of quality. Placed side by side you had a Caddy beside an Olds, both quality but the Ithaca wasn't as good and the only resemblence between the two was that they were both "Hawken" style rifles. You wouldn't go wrong with eiter one. A dim light in my memory keeps flashing "made in Japan" re the BMR but it has been almost 30 years now and the flashing light might be on the ambulance after I wrecked my last Kawasaki.

 

[Stumpkiller]

I won't own a Japanese car for personal reasons, but I have an Ithaca/SKB 200-E 26" bbl. .20 ga. side-by-side shotgun and it is probably the finest (breechloading) firearm I'll evey own. Beautiful wood, chisel engraving, automatic ejectors, light and sweet. ( IC/M, SK/SK, 28" M/F three barrel set no less) It's also worth a bit more than I paid for it even though the bluing has worn a bit at the receiver from being carried afield hundreds of times. It is the only non-muzzleloader I hunt small game with.

I don't think "Made in Japan" is such a stigma when it comes to guns, knives, cameras (I also have a Nikon FE that is 27 years old and still makes me hesitate to switch to a digital camera) or outboards from 1970 & later.

 

[swquiro]

I see that the seller of the Browning Mountain rifle on[url] GunBroker.com[/url] has reduced the price to $200. Since he lobbed off the barrel to 26" it would not have any collector value, but, as he claims, it just may be a good shooter. Of course, I certainly need another rifle in the collection. Hmm...I need to do some thinking...

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Greetings Gentlemen,

The Jonathan Browning Mountain Rifle and Ithica Hawken are not the same rifle. Having owned several of each and having them apart (locks) for internal polishing and tuning, I can definately state they are not the same. Even the rifling twist is different. The Browning was made in 45, 50, and 54 caliber, and each caliber had its own rifling twist rate:45,1-56 50,1-62 and 54,1-66. Groove depth was .010" -011" deep. These were and definately round ball rifles and all I have were superbly accurate. In 50 caliber, .495 balls were very accurate; consistent 1" groups at 50 yds off the bench with factory open sights. Cast, weighed .500 balls would shoot into smaller groups. Of course the bore was wiped between every shot. The rifles were available in brass or browned steel furniture. Having seen very few brass furniture Brownings, I believe most were manufactured in browned iron. The brass ones might have more collectors value today. Two years ago, I sold my NIB Centennal model for $1200. Alas, I am now down to 1 50 caliber Browning with a spare 45 caliber barrel. My wife has said it not for sale EVER, since it is the she learned to shoot with.
it is my opinion the JB Mountain Rifle is the finest quality, most accurate factory produced, over the counter, out of the box, traditional round ball muzzle loading rifle produced.
Having shot ML rifles for 51 years in competition and for hunting, I am still using black powder. I do not know of a single serious winning competition ML shooter who uses anything other than black powder. My deer and wild hog 50 caliber JBMR hunting load is 85 grains of 2FF black powder with a .500 cast lead ball. This load produces 1" c-c 5 shot groups off the bench at 50 yards with the original factory open sights. The bore is wiped between shots.
Hope this will answer some of the questions and speculation
about the JB Mountain Rifle. If any of you have a chance to get one at a good price, in good bore and outside condition, do it. And one thing, the JBMR has a good single set trigger.

Best Regards, John L. Hinnant-New Member

 

50 caliber JBMR hunting load is 85 grains of 2FF black powder with a .500 cast lead ball.

: Although we use typically heavier charges than yours up here in Central B.C., it is common to use double F from .50 on up in size. We have never found it to shoot dirtier than 3f, but in the larger bores, it does seem to produce softer fouling. I have seen and heard of this phenominum of cleaner shooting with 3F for years, but have not experienced it myself & switched to 2F many years ago for the .50's on up. I do like the velocity increase with 3F in the .45 cal. and use 3F in mine now, but when trying double, I didn't find it to foul more. If I was still shooing cap-locks, I would probably still use 2F in the .45 as all the other larger bores. Given "Good" cut-rifled barrels, I don't think you can see the difference in acccurcy between the two & doubleF certainly gives lower pressures when the velocity is matched, just as Lyman found those many years ago & printed in the Handbook.
: None of us clean our barrels except after the days shooting & generally after supper as well. It is nice to have a low 'normal' Humidity index of 50%.
Daryl