Browning Help.

[Reb_Cav2]

Ok fellas,
My two sons went and purchased a St Lewis Hawkens Rifle Kit from Traditions. They did this together by pooling their money together and are now trying to decide Brown or Blue. Well after a 45 minute phone call and mediation (me being the mediator) they agreed on a browned barrel for their first rifle build. So now the big question is there are parts in the kit that are already blued mainly the screws and the rear retainer for the barrel, do we strip the blueing off these parts and brown them or do we leave these parts blued?
All the help with this would be great since my boys and I have never built a rifle before but hope to build a few more over the years.
Thank you in advance
Reb_Cav

 

[necchi]

Rear retainer for the barrel?
You mean the underlug?

I usually strip and brown all the pieces.
Naval Jelly, found at hardware stores around the paint section does a great job.

 

[Reb_Cav2]

Yes the underlug. Sorry forgot the name. and Navel Jelly I would have never thought about. When you say all parts, you mean all except for the lock? or do you brown the lock also?
Thank you for the advice.

 

[crockett]

Hope you haven't done anything yet. Charles Hanson (Museum of the Fur Trade) wrote a book , The Plains Rifle. It has a lot on the Hawkin and if I recall on many of the original guns the barrel was browned but the smaller parts were blued. So, brown the barrel and leave the rest blued.
ps- you had to boil the parts to get a rust blue. It was probably easier to boil the small parts but just brown the long barrel.

 

[jdkerstetter]

I use Dangler's or Wahkon Bay's agents to brown and have never had to remove bluing first. These agents are acid, different acid than is in Naval Jelly, but acid just the same. Like browning, bluing is just a form of oxidation and you can brown right through it.

As to the lock? I don't brown locks as I've seen no evidence they were ever browned originally, just left with whatever color the hardening imparted or polished.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Rifleman1776]

parts in the kit that are already blued mainly the screws and the rear retainer for the barrel, do we strip the blueing off these parts and brown them or do we leave these parts blued?

I have browned right over the blueing with no problem. No need to strip, just brown.

 

[necchi]

Like JD said the lock is left blued/case hardened like the kit has it.
I use the Laurel Mountain Forge Browning solution
Naval jelly is too easy. A few moments in the stuff and the blueing is gone leaving me with a surface that is in the same condition across the piece.

As far as the underlug it's unseen for the most part, but if it's a kit getting the practice is a good thing

 

[Reb_Cav2]

Looks like I might have to research this since I think that might help the original situation that they both get a little of what they like on the rifle some blue some browned.
Thank you to all that have made input so far. I am taking all the information and learning since I know that each of my boys want their own rifle and I have 4 boys so I think it will be a while before dear old Dad gets his own.

 

[nchawkeye]

I fire blue the smaller parts and cold brown the barrel...If parts are already blued, leave them alone...It's easier and faster to fire blue small parts and harder to fire blue something as long as a barrel...

 

[Billnpatti]

Easy-Peasy. This is a technique given to me by a friend. Go to your local sporting goods store and buy a Birchwood-Casey kit that has the Rust and Bluing Remover and a bottle of Plum Brown. Follow the directions to remove the bluing but not from the screws and you are ready to start browning. You will need to rig up a rod in a vice onto which you can place the barrel in a horizontal position so that nothing touches anywhere. An alternative way is to place the barrel in a vertical position. Take a piece of 2 X 12 and drill a hole in it big enough to fit a dowel rod into. The dowel will need to be strong enough to hold up your barrel and still fit loosely into the bore. Fasten the 2 X 12 to something that will hold it and keep it from falling over. Slide the barrel down over the dowel. Position the barrel at a height where you can work on it. Thoroughly degrease the barrel. Heat the barrel with a propane torch just until it is too hot to handle. The directions tell heat the metal until water will sizzle on it. This is not necessary. Once the metal is too hot to handle, wipe on the Browning solution. It will not be an even coat at first but just keep wiping it on until it is nice and even. You may have to apply a bit of heat from your torch to keep it hot. Once you have a nice even brown, allow the barrel to cool and then put it into a piece of PVC pipe with a cap on one end. Fill the pipe with transmission fluid and let it sit for a week or so to allow the browning to "cure". Then remove the barrel and clean off the transmission fluid then oil your barrel with a good gun oil and it is good to go. You will end up with a really beautiful dark brown.

 

[fleener]

Vinegar will take off the bluing


Fleener

 

[tbarnes66]

I've been using the LMF browning but have some of Danglers.

Do you see any difference?

Any difference in application?

 

[jdkerstetter]

Hey Tim, Haven't used LMF so can't compare. I used a lot of Wahkon Bay and only ended up using Dangler's as I was out WB and a neighbor gave me some. I likely won't buy any LMF as I'm happy with these two and I don't like the reports of coppering I hear about with LMF.

Dangler's and WB work the same way, though it seems WB is stronger/more agressive. Enjoy, J.D.

 

[jdkerstetter]

Easy-Peasy.....

Really Bill??? That's a lot to go through for easy-peasy....not to mention the expense of all that ATF that the guy is soaking the barrel in. :shake:

You might be right about having to remove the blue before us BC Plum Brown as I find this finish almost transparent and it lacks the build up you get with real browning. Seems like the barrel requires more prep than with cold brown, almost as much as a blue.

I also don't like the fact that it has to be applied to a hot barrel. Heat and chemicals don't mix well, it's kind of noxious....but at least they've taken the mercury out of thier mix now. :shocked2:

For cold brown all you have to do is clean any oil/grease of the barrel, plug the muzzle and vent, apply and let sit in a humid environment until it rust, card off the loose rust and repeat until you reach the desired level of brown. No need to remove bluing beforehand as the browning will eat through it.

Neutralize with household amonia or baking soda/water paste, rinse and oil. Other then liberal use of elbow grease during carding, I don't know how it gets easier.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[jdkerstetter]

For what it's worth, don't worry about what's proper/correct for a "Hawken", let the boys do as they wish. Whether they brown or blue the parts they will learn something and any hand craft is worth learning.

Just make sure they wear the proper protective equipment and follow safety precations. These chemicals are nasty and can do permanent respiratory and other soft tissue damage.

You certainly don't want any of these in your eyes. Supervise them and Enjoy the Journey! J.D.

 

[Zonie]

Another "for what it's worth".

I would not recommend using Birchwood Casey Plum Brown to brown the barrel.

This is a hot process that requires heating the barrel to 280 degrees F to get the solution to work. If the temperature is too high it produces a mottled rather ugly brown that takes many additional coatings to even out.
If it is too cold it applies a layer of copper on the barrel that must be removed to get the metal to brown at all.

Even if everything is done right, it takes several recoatings to get the appearance to even out and look good.

IMO, it's great stuff for small things but not for barrels.

Laurel Mountain Barrel Brown & Degreaser (LMF) and some humidity does an excellent job.
It does take several days to apply the several coats and rub the loose rust away but it produces a almost fool proof method of browning.

Apply the solution very lightly, not going over the applied areas more than once. Set the barrel aside in a humid room and let it work.
Rub off the loose stuff and reapply another coat.

After several of these applications a rich hard even rust brown will be the result.

As for the small blued parts, leave them as they are.
Most of the screws on my rifles are case hardened, polished and then heat blued.
I think the contrast between these and the browned surfaces adds interest.

 

[Bruce Bogart]

The best I have used is browning solution put out by Hatfield Rifle Works. I still have a partial bottle and then....who knows?

 

[rustyh]

JD I'm the guy Bill was talking about, so far the Birchwood Casey Brown on my GPR has held up very well.


The transmission fluid was a gallon that has been sitting around for several years that I have used before after browning parts. I just pour it back in the jug after using it.
As Bill said you don't have to heat the parts to 280 degrees that is too hot it will cause the BC to dry instantly and will produce a blothcy finish, you just need to get it hot enough that you can't handle it with your hands probably around 175 to 200 degrees. I did apply several coats to the barrel and larger parts, butt plate, trigger guard and lock plate and hammer.

 

[jdkerstetter]

No offence meant. My reply to Bill was a little tongue in cheek, I assumed you were likely using the ATF over and over again and to me the way he described the process just seemed like more work than the traditional methods. Getting an even coat of rust with acid just seems easier and you don't have to worry about the process being sensitive to differences in heat.

Other than hot chemical fumes, the problem I have with BC PB is it doesn't yield that thick protective period looking rust brown, in my experience anyway.

Could be the photo, but the gun you show in your post really doesn't appear to be "browned" at all, but blue. Guns I've seen using BC PB are usually pretty easy to spot, especially when compaired to cold acid browning. Nicely done, but not brown.

And as with other processes, others mileage may vary. :idunno: Enjoy, J.D.

 

[crockett]

Reb- send a PM to Greywolf/Chuck Burrows or re-post this on the mountain man forum on what was browned and what was blued. Chuck knows a lot about the original hawken rifles.