brush-busting with roundballs

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I thought I would look into what factors affect the brush busting abilities of a bullet aside from the usual mantra of, slow-n-heavy.

It has lead me on a fun odyssey studying gyroscopes and such. I am reaching the conclusion that nobody has bothered to design a bullet to plough through brush. Rather they design bullets for long range then test them for brush-busting ability only to conclude that they stink.

Anyway from my reading it seems that those properties that would help a bullet plough through brush would be:
1 heavy weight
2 little or no spin
3 blunt nose or flat nose
4 hard material

It occurred to me that there might be some guys here that have experience shooting hardened lead roundballs through brush. I am not sure if rifling spin could be a hindrance in this matter so maybe a smoothbore is best?

So have you any experiences shooting through brush with a harder-than-pure lead ball?

Please no lectures on "not supposed to shoot through brush". I heard/read them all. I avoid shooting through brush - but mother nature made deer fur and twigs to blend together, and deer often move in poor light, and . . . well stuff happens.

 

[Eric Krewson]

I have found to my dismay that the smallest twig will deflect a round ball, often one that I can't see in the line of sight in the fading evening light.

Case in point; This buck was walking down a steep hill in front of me, I was shooting a tack driving rifle with a Roller lock, ignition is fast on a different level with this lock, I loaded a .445 ball pushed by 70 gr of 3F. I put the sight behind its shoulder and touched off the shot, the deer did a somersault and slid down the hill. When I got to the deer it had been hit in the neck right under its jaw, how did that happen at 30 yards?

I went back to retrieve my tree seat and noticed a small limb less that the size of a pencil about 10 feet from where I shot had a halfmoon notch cut out of it. The ball had deflected 3' in 30 yards.

Another one, this sapling that I didn't notice was 2 ft in front of a deers shoulder. 90gr of 2F and a 226gr .54 ball, the deer was untouched.

 

[Robby]

Jaque, I saw a video once where some guys tested this very same idea by setting up a row of brush with a target behind it. They tried to make it a fair as possible for every gun, caliber tested, from a .22 long to a .50 BMG and a manure load in between. Every thing was measured and verified as best they could and at the end of the day the weapon that had consistently less deflection than all the others, by far, was a .62 caliber, smooth bore, muzzle loader.
Robby

 

[N.Y. Yankee]

I once tried a shot at a doe in an apple orchard. .54 PRB from 40 yards. I was dead on the deer's lungs. At the shot, she jumped and stood there looking around. She finally saw me and bolted. I looked and looked,found no blood or hair. Eventually did find a few apple twigs shot off, more or less in line with the ball trajectory. Won't do that again.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Jaque, I saw a video once where some guys tested this very same idea by setting up a row of brush with a target behind it. They tried to make it a fair as possible for every gun, caliber tested, from a .22 long to a .50 BMG and a manure load in between. Every thing was measured and verified as best they could and at the end of the day the weapon that had consistently less deflection than all the others, by far, was a .62 caliber, smooth bore, muzzle loader.
Robby

NOT A BAD IDEA but I submit you need to test this where you hunt. I'll wager the brush a la the hedgelines where I hunt are of different plants than those of the fellow in Missiouri, or Texas, or Wisconsin, or California, eh? We know a lot about the wood density on trees since we use trees for lots of things even today, but brush? A few types of plants are used for baskets, a few for crude rope, and after that most of what folks might be trying to shoot through is only used as animal habitat or for the "church ladies" to make wreaths out of at Christmas. Who knows how hard some of that stuff might be or what it'd do.

ALSO don't forget that a lot of them hedge rows grew up around wire fences....I'd venture that a soft round ball vs a concealed bit of fence will = failure to reach the proper target, eh?

LD

 

[theoldredneck]

Over the years have played with all types of projectiles in both modern and muzzleloader guns, smooth bore and rifled. A hard full wadcutter type bullet will cut a round hole in paper and small limbs etc. They will also deflect like a pointed, round point, flat nose round point, semiwadcutter, round ball etc. The heavy projectiles give better penetration than light projectiles due to weight energy relationship. Both light and heavy will still deflect. Regardless of modern advertising about brush busting ammo/ gun combinations in reality any bullet can and will deflect. As I get older I set and wait for game. Look for things between myself and game trails. The point in hunting with a muzzleloader and patch round ball has to do with tradition and challenges of older traditional guns. I'm at the age and have killed enough game that if there is doubt about having a clear shot I don' shoot. Have hit plenty of twigs, limbs, trees etc over the years. Some caused a miss or less than perfect hit. Some inspite of obstruction and youthful zeal were clean kills. If I was looking for something to cut brush would find a double 10 gauge. Shoot buck and ball from as short range as possible. Volume of projectiles instead one round ball or slug. I hate tracking gut shot deer knowing the animal deserved better.

 

[Robby]

Personally, I don't shoot through brush and will pass if it come to that.
Robby

 

[appalichian hunter]

I feel it is a un-ethical hunter whom would run the risk of wounding a deer or other animal by attempting to rush a shot through brush. Why not wait and plan a shot as the deer moves around eventually the animal will present a clear shot in a opening. I have personally watched deer for over a 1/2 hour waiting on that magic moment. It is understandable that occasionally a un-noticed limb or small tree will accidentally appear out of nowhere. Case in point is I have never shot at or harvested a deer over 100 yds. with either a muzzle loader or high power rifle. I have harvested a bunch of them. First Monday Maryland rifle season I hunted with my fathers rifle as I always do since he passed, watched a seven point buck 45 mins. work his way towards me through very thick brush, with his girl friend in the lead. He is now venison in the freezer. Patience in my part is a part of being a true hunter.

 

[Stumpkiller]

I don't count on anything to punch through twigs/brush or any obstructions . . . but.

A 437 grain round ball will be deflected less than a 178 grain round ball just because of the Laws of Thermodynamics. More mass. HOWEVER, it is also larger diameter - so more chance it will bite into a twig.

Best bet - have a clear window to the target and pass on deer behind twigs & branches. So far this season I have let two walk on because there was cover in front of their chests and they were outer edge of my self-imposed limit. Just to risky. If I was starving it may have been a different story.

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

A 437 grain round ball will be deflected less than a 178 grain round ball just because of the Laws of Thermodynamics. More mass. HOWEVER, it is also larger diameter - so more chance it will bite into a twig.

Not necessarily. This is my point. So many people out there think it comes down to momentum/mass, but they dismiss the affects of gyroscopic rotation, bullet shape, and bullet hardness.

Bullets/balls shot from rifles may have a disadvantage due to their spin. A slight bump to a gyroscope can do weird things. Soft lead could make it worse.

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Man Robby if you could link me up with that video!

 

[Robby]

Jaque, Sorry, I looked for it so I could present it here, but alas, my cyber skills are left wanting once again.
Anyone that has done night fire with tracers knows how whacky and unpredictable a bullet is once it strikes something,
Robin

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Robby, Any kid who spun a top on a table knows what happens when it hit a glass or ashtray. Rifle bullets are just flying gyroscopes.

 

[hawkeye2]

As a projectile strikes a sapling, bush or whatever the branch will begin to deflect from the impact. This will carry the bullet with it as it goes through and it can exit in quite another direction. Even grazing a springy sapling can alter a projectile's path quit a bit.

When I was much younger my great uncle told me several times of his experience firing a pre 1900 .45-70-500 black powder cartridge from a trapdoor at a frozen rock maple. The bullet passed just above his head on its return and heeding his warning I have never hung a target on a tree in the middle of a Maine winter.

 

[BrownBear]

I have found to my dismay that the smallest twig will deflect a round ball....

Amen. I do a lot of brush shooting for snowshoe hare, as well as deer. The hare shooting is not all small caliber, rather I also do a lot with reduced loads in larger cals. A whole lot.

In common with my experience and tests with "conical" bullets in cartridge guns there are two key factors: Size of the obstruction, and especially, distance of the target behind the obstruction. And the distance behind the obstruction is key until the obstruction just gets too big in relationship to the size of the ball or bullet. Basically, the further behind the obstruction, the more likely you'll miss, and if it's a big obstruction you'll miss more. But mostly it's those pesky little obstructions you don't see or notice that cause all the problems. If even a little one is close to the gun, who knows where the ball/bullet will land. If it's out close to the target, your odds of a hit go way up.

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

But mostly it's those pesky little obstructions you don't see or notice that cause all the problems. If even a little one is close to the gun, who knows where the ball/bullet will land. If it's out close to the target, your odds of a hit go way up.

This.

The ones you don't see. And the closer to the target the less likely you are going to see them. A raspberry cane is easy to see 10 yards away, but is tough to pick out 40 yards away. Since you can never be truly sure your shot is clear, it is nice to understand how bullets react.

I have noticed that most replies seem to be along the lines of what happened when someone shot a rifle in brush. I posted this in the smoothbore section for a reason.

 

[BrownBear]

I posted this in the smoothbore section for a reason.

Because you're assuming a smoothbore would perform differently than a rifle?

Better explain your reason, then maybe we can do a better job of helping.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I just use a machete, it's quieter and quicker really.



B

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Because you're assuming a smoothbore would perform differently than a rifle?

Better explain your reason, then maybe we can do a better job of helping.

I was curious if people who have used smoothbores noticed better performance through brush (say during a woodswalk, if you don't like hunting in brush) compared to a rifle. The gyroscope effect of rifling helps improve accuracy over greater distances, but it seems that it can work against you in the brush.

 

[BrownBear]

I was curious if people who have used smoothbores noticed better performance through brush (say during a woodswalk, if you don't like hunting in brush) compared to a rifle. The gyroscope effect of rifling helps improve accuracy over greater distances, but it seems that it can work against you in the brush.

I haven't noticed any difference at all in the field, but that's not as indicative as the test shooting I did years ago with rifles, targets and sample obstructions. Pretty easy test to do with the gun on a bench at the range and a clamp on a tripod you can have an assistant position at varying ranges from the target. The big difference for smoothbore would be accuracy to hit the obstruction zackly how you want at any distance at all. I'm too old and indifferent to take on such a project now!

Bottom line, don't hit the obstructions with either of them.