Buck and Ball Reprised

[Many Klatch]

This weekend I was at the Lore of the Laughery, an NMLRA sponsored F&I event at Friendship. Part of the event was live fire at targets instead of blanks at a 45 degree elevation. We mostly did this for ourselves, as the tourists had already gone home.

I had a couple pounds of 00 buckshot and also had cast up a bunch of swan shot. So we tried them all.

We had nine shooters, with .60 to .72 smoothbores. I had them load 3 or 4 buckshot on top of their round ball and we put an overshot wad on top of the load.

We started shooting at a single mansized target at about 30 yards. After each shot we changed the target.

At 30 yards the round balls and a very few buckshot hit the single target. We walked up 5 paces reloaded and shot again. At 25 yards the buckshot started to show up. At 20 yards it was pretty impressive. AT 10 yards the target was peppered with buckshot.

Then we tried swan shot from 10 yards. No round ball just the swanshot. The .60 were loading about 8 or 10 the .72 were loading 12 to 15. Although one .60 put 20 in as a load. Boys, I want to tell you that was one shot up target.

Then for fun we backed off to 30 yards with nothing but swanshot. I figure that between the 9 shooters we sent a hail of 140 or more swanshot down range. 27 of them were in the target. We were all surprised that we had so many hits.

The swan shot that I was casting is slightly smaller than the 00 buck shot but with the tail it probably weighs close to the same.

90% of the swan shot went in sideways.

Many Klatch

 

[Rancocas]

Buck 'n ball and the swan shot loads must surely have been deadly on the battlefields and with the fighting methods of the day.
But, I won't be fighting any stand up battles with a muzzleloader. I'm interested in hunting. In my experiments with buck 'n ball I found they might be somewhat useful if I'm hunting boar with a pack of hounds and the dogs get the pig cornered so that I can move in on it to very close range. But, then the plain single ball does the job just fine, so why should I add the extra lead? Heck, at the close ranges needed for buck 'n ball to be effective on large game, I know guys who charge in with a spear instead of a firearm!
Now, maybe the swan shot could be effective on close range, called in coyotes. I've never tried swan shot.
Its all fun to play around with, anyway.

 

[J.D.]

The swan shot that I was casting is slightly smaller than the 00 buck shot but with the tail it probably weighs close to the same.

90% of the swan shot went in sideways.

Many Klatch

Historically, swan shot was cast round ball, WITH NO TAIL, of about 25-27 caliber, depending on the source. I don't know where the idea that swan shot had a tail came from, but it is not a historical fact. The modern idea of so called Swan shot with a tail has NO historical counterpart that I am aware of.

Many Klatch,
I'm curious as to where you obtained a mould to cast balls with a tail and where you found the documentation for this mould? I would appreciate seeing a photo of this mould as I have not seen anything like you describe.

Thanks,
J.D.

 

[Zoar]

I am interested in this buck and ball approach. Mainly for making holes in targets and the smiles it brings, but I am thinking it might have some validity for hunting pigs.

So, to understand it correctly----I load my 54 cal as always with powder/patch/Round Ball... THEN I drop 3 or 4 00 or slightly smaller buck shot on that and THEN put an overshot card on top and use ram to seat. Is this correct?

 

[J.D.]

So, to understand it correctly----I load my 54 cal as always with powder/patch/Round Ball... THEN I drop 3 or 4 00 or slightly smaller buck shot on that and THEN put an overshot card on top and use ram to seat. Is this correct?

I would find a buck diameter that will allow 3 balls to lay in a single layer. The only way I know to do that is trial and error, but I would start with #3 or #4 buck, which are .25 and .24 in diameter, respectively. Either #2, .27 dia, or #3 at .25 dia are about the size of true swan shot...and they don't have tails. :nono: :grin:

 

[Zoar]

I would think a bunch of #4 BUCKS on top of a .530 ball would make for a nasty slayer.

 

[J.D.]

Yes it would, if it patterned well enough.

Just for the record, I don't have any problem with anyone making or using any form of shot with tails.

The problem I do have is misrepresenting the fantasy of "swan shot" as having a tail as a historical fact. If someone wants to use tailed shot, that's ok with me, but call it what it is. Call it "fantasy shot", or "tail shot", or "drip shot," or something that does not misrepresent what it is.


I might add one of the definitions of a lie, is a willful misrepresentation of fact. And while I don't think anyone would intentionally lie to anyone, willful misrepresentation of the historical fact that swan shot was cast round shot of 25-27 caliber is pretty close.

If anyone has any documentation to suggest that swan shot had tails, I am willing to change my opinion.

Thanks,
J.D.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Out to 25 yards, maybe, but not much beyond that. #4 Buck is only .24" in diameter, and just don't have the mass, or Ballistics Coefficient to be a good penetrator much beyond 25 yards. Yes, they will kill humans at twice that range. But you are talking about using this kind of ammo on deer and other game animals.

 

[Zoar]

Nope, I wouldn't think of trying killing a deer or large game with #4 buck BEYOND 25 yards.

I like playing around with what I refer to blunderbuss loads for close range work or for dangerous game that charges. I have a specially made double barrel shotgun with express sites (like a double rifle) and I shoot everything from 1 and 3/8 OUNCE slugs to mixed shot throuh the tubes. But I want to play around with my single tubed Muzzleloader and #4 Buck on top of a .53 diamoter RB sounds like good close range medicice.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I think you understand the limitations. Test your loads for penetration using whatever medium you like. I made a penetration testing box using 1 inch pine boards( 3/4" after being cut) spaced 1 inch apart, years ago, to test loads. I was never interested in buck and ball, and was only shooting a .50 caliber rifle at the time. So, I can't help you. But, based on other testing I have done, and observed by friends, I would expect the #4 Buck to be able to penetrate that 1 inch board at 25 yards, but not much more. At 10 yards, I would expect it to penetrate the first board, and bury itself into the second.

Pattern also becomes a real problem as the yardage increases. I think you understand that, and is why you are doing these experiments. The toughest game animals I have hunted East of the Missisippi are Wild boar. I have killed two of them, and both shots were at short pistol range. I think the advice you got about just letting the .54 caliber ( or .53?) ball do its job is good, and I personally don't see much better results coming from using Buck shot in combination with a ball that diameter in shooting wild boars. Unless you are shooting at their brains, so that the main large ball penetrates the skull to hit the brain, the small buck shot will not deliver enough shock to the boar to put it down when hit elsewhere on the body. And the scapula is a very large, wide structure protecting the upper half of the lungs. If the buck shot hits that plate, it is not going through it. Only that .53 or .54 cal. ball will do that.

After witnessing the effectiveness- or lack thereof of RB in .50, 54, and .75 calibers on Wild Boar, I still recommend people use conicals on this game animal, instead of any RB.

Yes, you can kill them with a round ball. But the RB does not have the shocking power of a conical. Perhaps if you try casting some hard lead balls for that kind of hunt, it might improve the shocking value, but soft lead balls, of any caliber, flatten out and destroy a lots of internal organs, causing death by hemorrhage, rather than by shock. I was very disappointed with the performance of my .50, until I talked to my two friends, using a .54 and a .75 brown bess to shoot their boars. They had the same problem I had: Good hits at close yardage, but a second shot was needed to bring the boar down. Even the guides got nervous when the boars didn't go down on our first shots! The guide with me started climing a small tree next to him, screaming at me to " Shoot him again!" as I reloaded my gun. He didn't have much experience with hunters shooting Flintlocks, even tho' he was born and raised in Tennessee, and lived there all his life.

 

[dgold]

Out to 25 yards, maybe, but not much beyond that. #4 Buck is only .24" in diameter, and just don't have the mass, or Ballistics Coefficient to be a good penetrator much beyond 25 yards. Yes, they will kill humans at twice that range. But you are talking about using this kind of ammo on deer and other game animals.

Am I right in assuming they were used in military settings? I would think that hitting someone with even one of the buck shot would be useful in battle?

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

By the time the Revolutionary war got to South Carolina in 1780 there are many recorded uses of buckshot by both sides. We are talking close range
and ambush warfare.
At Blackstock's farm the American militia flanked the British Legion ( While the riflemen had the ground troops pinned down in the center of the field ) and gave them a buckshot volley to spur them out into the open with the rifle fire.
The last action of this battle, General Sumter rode too close to the British rear guard and was hit by a wall of buckshot. Buckshot alone patterns better when it dosent have a big musket ball pushing behind it. It's hard to beat in close up action. :thumbsup:

 

[Zoar]

Good info all the way around.

part of my intrigue with buck and ball is for mountain lion at close range. I heard one outside my door growl at me from maybe 20 yards one dark night this winter and the next day I found cat prints in the snow large enough to set a 12 gauge shotgun shell in with enough room left over to put a small stack of quarters... I'm guessing 130-150 pounder and so did my buddy you hunts mountain lion regularly. So, I'm thinking buck and ball where I'd get shock and penetration and extra trama and injury from the buck in case I don't hit him just where I want to because he is moving.... FAST

 

[paulvallandigham]

Oh,Hell. Just growl back and the cat will run away. Only if you get between a cat and its young, or kill are you going to have trouble. Cats will not attack people if they recognize you for what you are. The few cat attacks have been on people moving fast- like joggers-- in the suburban foothills where cats are not yet used to seeing people, and think the jogger is a deer. Running away from most predators, canines, felines, bear, etc. will induce an attack, simply because these animals are used to killing by hamstringing their prey, or leaping on the back and breaking the backbone, either from its own weight, or by biting it and snapping its neck. If you make yourself large, by waving your arms out and up over your head while you growl louder than the cat does, the cat is going to back off.

You din't need a shotgun with buckshot loads in it to deal with cats. These are thin skinned animals, and any ML rifle with a round ball of .40 caliber or larger is going to dispatch them quickly.

If you look up mountain lions in a good Field Guide on Animal Tracks( I recommend Tom Brown, Jr.'s Field Guide to Nature Observation and Tracking), you will find that you are correct. A lion's track for an adult will be about 3 1/2 inches wide, with the front two paws being wider than the rear paws, by an 1/8-1/4" inch or so. A young adult female will run from 90-130 lbs. While adult males can get up towards 180-200 lbs. The throaty cough and low sounding growl of a Mountain lion are distinctive sounds, and are easily distinguished from the sound of a Lynx(in Canada) or the American Bobcat.

 

[tg]

"Historically, swan shot was cast round ball, WITH NO TAIL, of about 25-27 caliber, depending on the source. I don't know where the idea that swan shot had a tail came from, but it is not a historical fact. The modern idea of so called Swan shot with a tail has NO historical counterpart that I am aware of"

Absolutley correct, but this tadpole stuff being called Swan shot is really a hard one to kill, and everytimr it pops up some newcommer is lead down a path of misinformation, I wish people would call it large drip shot or dribble shot or even tadpole shot to keep things in the proper perspective.It is one of the most anoying misrepresented nomenclatures being tossed around,as the proper information is given everytine it comes up, yet it endures.

 

[Tman]

Out to 25 yards, maybe, but not much beyond that. #4 Buck is only .24" in diameter, and just don't have the mass, or Ballistics Coefficient to be a good penetrator much beyond 25 yards. Yes, they will kill humans at twice that range. But you are talking about using this kind of ammo on deer and other game animals.

Am I right in assuming they were used in military settings? I would think that hitting someone with even one of the buck shot would be useful in battle?

Look at it this way, in battle you really do not want to kill the dude, just maim. If you kill him you take out ONE person, if you severley injur him it takes out TWO more that have to drag him outta harms way! At least thats how it used to work

 

[Tman]

Oh,Hell. Just growl back and the cat will run away. Only if you get between a cat and its young, or kill are you going to have trouble. Cats will not attack people if they recognize you for what you are. The few cat attacks have been on people moving fast- like joggers-- in the suburban foothills where cats are not yet used to seeing people, and think the jogger is a deer. Running away from most predators, canines, felines, bear, etc. will induce an attack, simply because these animals are used to killing by hamstringing their prey, or leaping on the back and breaking the backbone, either from its own weight, or by biting it and snapping its neck. If you make yourself large, by waving your arms out and up over your head while you growl louder than the cat does, the cat is going to back off.

You din't need a shotgun with buckshot loads in it to deal with cats. These are thin skinned animals, and any ML rifle with a round ball of .40 caliber or larger is going to dispatch them quickly.

If you look up mountain lions in a good Field Guide on Animal Tracks( I recommend Tom Brown, Jr.'s Field Guide to Nature Observation and Tracking), you will find that you are correct. A lion's track for an adult will be about 3 1/2 inches wide, with the front two paws being wider than the rear paws, by an 1/8-1/4" inch or so. A young adult female will run from 90-130 lbs. While adult males can get up towards 180-200 lbs. The throaty cough and low sounding growl of a Mountain lion are distinctive sounds, and are easily distinguished from the sound of a Lynx(in Canada) or the American Bobcat.

Actually the two most hyped Mt Lion kills in recent years were on folks that were stopped (one was a MTN Biker fixing a broken chain) and they were STALKED as they sat still or crouched down. We have many cats out here in the Black Hills, the one found way back in Chicago is being tested to see if it came from here in South Dakota, several hundred miles away (one of ours with a radio collar ended up in Wisconsin)

Sorry for the Hi-jack, back to bucknball :wink:

 

[pcrum]

"Look at it this way, in battle you really do not want to kill the dude, just maim. If you kill him you take out ONE person, if you severley injur him it takes out TWO more that have to drag him outta harms way! At least thats how it used to work"

No offense, but every time I was in a battle, I wanted to kill every one of the SOB's!
Best regards,
Pat

 

[paulvallandigham]

Pat: you had the option of just pulling the trigger again. They didn't. It does make a difference.

Do you really think that anyone would stand in a shoulder to shoulder straight line, 50 yards from the enemy, also facing them in a straight, shoulder to shoulder, line, to shoot at each other, if either side had machine guns, or magazine fed repeating rifles? It wasn't until AFTER WWI that battlefield tactics finally changed to reflect the real problem of machine gun fire, and repeating rifles.

In Iraq, for the first time, front line troops are using rifles with both scopes, and night vision scopes, changing battlefield tactics again, fundamentally. It seems that the military is now looking for small arms that are again powerful enough to shoot through barriers, and the .45 pistol( Much improved, thank you) is returning to the battlefields in various small " special forces" groups, to use in close quarter combat roles. The short version of the M16A4 is becoming the weapon of choice for house clearing work, just as the .30 carbine was used for the same purpose in Korea and Vietnam.

If we could just get the military to accept the AR-10 frame, and chamber the gun for the 260 Remington, you would have the light recoil needed to allow the gun to be effectively used for CQB, while having the power to punch through walls and doors to take out enemy fighters.

Of coure, my preference is to put flare rounds into the buildings to light them up, and let the enemy deal with the prospect of being burned to death! Rules of War won't allow us to do that, I am told. I don't understand it, because flamethrowers are still " legal", but then, we are talking about politicians and the military.

 

[Tman]

"Look at it this way, in battle you really do not want to kill the dude, just maim. If you kill him you take out ONE person, if you severley injur him it takes out TWO more that have to drag him outta harms way! At least thats how it used to work"

No offense, but every time I was in a battle, I wanted to kill every one of the SOB's!
Best regards,
Pat

Yes, but we have a modern mindset. Read pauls response abouve, very well written.