Buckles on Shot Pouches?

[jon math]

This is going to sound weird. Is there a historically correct side to install a buckle in the strap of a shot pouch?

I wear my bag under my right arm and am a right handed shooter. I prefer the buckle behind me so it will not snag the butt stock as I mount the rifle. Naturally if I need to adjust the length of the strap I need to remove the bag to do so; if I had it in front I could adjust while still wearing the pouch. I figure I need to adjust the length only when I change the thickness of my clothing, but I may mount the rifle or shotgun many times and I’d rather not damage the wood. So is it builder’s choice or is there a correct side?

 

[Artificer]

This is going to sound weird. Is there a historically correct side to install a buckle in the strap of a shot pouch?

Yes there is. Since many period pouches were made by their owners and many others were "bespoke work" or made to order for individuals by Saddlers or other leather workers, they put the buckle on the side of the strap the owner preferred. So the "period correct" side to put the buckle, is where you want it put. There are plenty of early 19th century pouches still in existence, that have buckles on either side. There are not nearly enough 18th century pouches around, but period paintings and drawings show shot/hunting pouches with the buckles on either side - depending on where it was pictured being worn to some degree.

I wear my bag under my right arm and am a right handed shooter. I prefer the buckle behind me so it will not snag the butt stock as I mount the rifle. Naturally if I need to adjust the length of the strap I need to remove the bag to do so; if I had it in front I could adjust while still wearing the pouch. I figure I need to adjust the length only when I change the thickness of my clothing, but I may mount the rifle or shotgun many times and I’d rather not damage the wood. So is it builder’s choice or is there a correct side?

I put a single buckle on the left side of a pouch strap, as I also am right handed and wear my pouch on the right side, like you.

Besides the point you make about adjusting the length of the strap, they may not have needed to adjust the length of the pouch often, maybe only two times a year for winter and then for warmer weather.

I don't want the buckle and extra adjustment part of the strap towards the front of my body for reasons you mention, but also because I don't want it catching in brush or briars as I stalk or walk. I even took the Whisk and Pick off the strap towards the front of my body for the same reason.

Gus

 

[jon math]

Thank you!!

Another question if I may.

We know that pan brushes, vent picks etc. existed. I assume the scarcity of them compared to other items from that time is more a function of their delicate nature rather than their numbers. Were they typically hung off bags like they are today? Powder measures certainly were commonly carried that way but was the rest of the stuff also? I’ve seen men’s bags so loaded with corded accessories, sheaths for knives, short starters, adjustable powder measures, loading blocks etc and they rattle so much that you hear the owner walking down the trail long before you see them. To my mind that is not the way to go hunting or staying safe when entering woods that most likely are full of enemies intent on killing you.

 

[BrownBear]

I’ve seen men’s bags so loaded with corded accessories, sheaths for knives, short starters, adjustable powder measures, loading blocks etc and they rattle so much that you hear the owner walking down the trail long before you see them. To my mind that is not the way to go hunting or staying safe when entering woods that most likely are full of enemies intent on killing you.

Same here. I tried dangly gear on a bag, and it wasn't so much the noise. It was all those pretty display items tangling in the brush. I see danglies on bags and I have to shake my head.

 

[Black Hand]

I have a measure tied to the horn which is tucked into my belt when not in use.

 

[jon math]

I have just a measure as well, and most of the time it is in the bag as well.

 

[nhmoose]

Dangleies get caught in brush where I hunt so nothing goes outside the bag.

Even the bag gets caught at times.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Personally I hang nothing off my bag. I do hang a light turkey bone powder measure off the neck of my rifle horn (which is on a separate strap).

Less to tangle in the brush or get lost. I have a three shot ball-block in a sheath on the horn strap and a sheath in the back of the bag I can add a five shot ball-block is needed.

Never needed to go into the bag when deer hunting (I prime & shoot with FFFg).

My smoothbore: nothing hanging off the bag and again just a powder measure off the horn. When hunting with round ball I use paper cartridges and don't even bring the horn. ;-) But I have a flat priming horn with FFFFg in the bag.

 

[Artificer]

Thank you!!

You are most welcome!

Another question if I may.

We know that pan brushes, vent picks etc. existed. I assume the scarcity of them compared to other items from that time is more a function of their delicate nature rather than their numbers. Were they typically hung off bags like they are today? Powder measures certainly were commonly carried that way but was the rest of the stuff also? I’ve seen men’s bags so loaded with corded accessories, sheaths for knives, short starters, adjustable powder measures, loading blocks etc and they rattle so much that you hear the owner walking down the trail long before you see them. To my mind that is not the way to go hunting or staying safe when entering woods that most likely are full of enemies intent on killing you.

Though there is some documentation of civilians using Whisks and Prick Sets, most of the time it seems to have been for Militia/Military use. (The British Military usually issued them for all enlisted men in much of the 18th century.) I had one set on the second Shot Pouch (18th century Period Term) I made, as I used it both with my flint rifle and Brown Bess Carbine. That is the Whisk and Prick set I mentioned having taken off a Shot Pouch I own.

Since we have so few extant 18th century pouches, I don't think we can completely accurately say what was truly commonly done in the period. It has been mentioned in period documentation that every frontiersman had an awl on him at all times and often stuck into the strap or other part of his Shot Pouch. I have wondered if that awl also did double duty as a Vent Hole Pick? There seems to be little or no documentation for a special patch knife in the 18th century, so I would not have one on my pouch strap for replicating that period.

19th century pouches run the gamut of some things attached to the strap or pouch body. A few had knives attached to the straps and I remember at least one or two where a knife had a sheath sewn onto the back side of the pouch. One knife and sheath sewn in Madison Grant's book was obviously made separately and attached to the front of the strap in a way that looked like it would have caught up on everything.

Bottom line, I completely agree that is one has so many "dangly things" hanging from straps on their pouch that they give away the hunter's position in the woods or get caught up easily, it probably would not have been used in the period by too many folks.

Gus

 

[Grenadier1758]

You can see the pick and whisk in the picture of my military cartridge box.

From a military perspective, the pick and whisk hanging from the strap is not much of a problem. Access to the pick and whisk is the priority when you are trying to keep up a 3 shot a minute rate of fire.

While you can't see all the buckles, the strap on the cartridge box has three. Two are hidden under the flap. Since the cartridge box is carried on the right side, the strap is passing over the left shoulder and the buckles don't interfere with the handling of the musket.

From the Morier painting of a Grenadier.

Of course this doesn't answer the question of buckles on the strap of a hunting pouch other than the buckles and be positioned so that the buckles and straps can be used in a way that doesn't interfere with the opration of the firearm.

 

[jon math]

Very nice kit! What is the two prong fork like thing towards the lower side of the photo, opposite the wooden cart. box? I’m guessing it’s a ram rod accessory to turn it into a cooking fork or for holding punk wood over a fire to char it.

Thanks for posting the great photos!

 

[Grenadier1758]

You are exactly correct. However since the thread is about buckles and the cooking fork that screws onto my metal ramrod can't be used as a touch hole pick, I didn't say anything about it.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

John my measure rides on a leather thong from the strap. So does my bullet board but they don't dangle from those locations. The measure rides inside the breast of my hunting shirt or 18th century coat/waistcoat, and the bullet board rides within the bag. The thongs are to prevent me from dropping the items on the ground and losing them or stepping on the fragile turkey bone, measure.

The brush and other tools..., turnscrew, knapper/hammer, ride on a ring also in the bag. My primary vent pick is a brass pin with a looped head that rides pinned through the cloth on the lapel of my outer garment.

Nothing bangs against me making noise as I move through the woods, Nothing is hit by the stock of the rifle or gun as I bring it up, to marr the stock or to make noise. :wink:

LD

 

[Artificer]

Perhaps LD and Grenadier 1758 can help with this?

Some of the original Whisk and Prick sets and at least one adjustable tinned Iron Powder Measure (that was not Military Issue) are hung on chains that have a sort of a bent and almost closed "U" shape piece in the middle that has small closed loops on the end of the "U" from which the chains were hung.

I have NO documentation for this, but have wondered if that closed "U" shape piece in the middle was sometimes used by being hung from a around a button on a waist coat? Then when the waist coat material of the button hole went over the button, it kept the Whisk and Pick in place? This would have given some security to keep the Whisk and Pick set from falling off, but still allowed it to be taken off when not in use for firing?

I have never used Whisk and Pick sets that way and always secured them by sewing the almost closed "U" shape piece to the strap of the shot pouch, but I have wondered if they were originally sometimes used around a waist coat button?

Gus

 

[jon math]

LOL bag contents were not the original topic, but a question is just the opening and by adding informative replies it just makes a simple topic a real tapestry of new knowledge.


I had read stories of using ram rods for cooking I always assumed the meat was just skewered on, the added fork accessory sure makes the rod even more versatile. Is it something you had made up, or are they available on line somewhere I’d love to add one to my kit.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

For personal, non-military use a buckle could be worn front or back. I prefer mine in front. I have never caught any brush with it, it's never gotten in the way with using my gun, and I can lean back on a tree and I don't have a buckle digging in my back.
Most of my customers however prefer their buckles to the rear.

I will say that in my research of English sporting gentlemen of the 18th century, most of the images show them with their buckles in front.

 

[Artificer]

For personal, non-military use a buckle could be worn front or back. I prefer mine in front. I have never caught any brush with it, it's never gotten in the way with using my gun, and I can lean back on a tree and I don't have a buckle digging in my back.
Most of my customers however prefer their buckles to the rear.

I will say that in my research of English sporting gentlemen of the 18th century, most of the images show them with their buckles in front.

Capt Jas.,

VERY glad you chimed in here. You have studied 18th century English Sporting Gentlemen much more than most folks. I have wondered if they liked the buckle in front more, because as more affluent men, they had a more extensive wardrobe to contend with and thus needed to adjust the strap more for their different suits of clothes? Also, it seems to me they are rarely pictured with any "danglies" hanging from their straps. Do you find that true?

Gus

 

[Capt. Jas.]

No "danglies" Pockets were used a great deal.
I'm not sure if there was a standardized reason for buckle in front.

 

[Artificer]

No "danglies" Pockets were used a great deal.
I'm not sure if there was a standardized reason for buckle in front.

Thank you. I appreciate your thoughts.

Going back to what you mentioned about you placing the buckle in front and not having a problem with it, it got me thinking about what turned out to be my favorite shot pouch over the years, at least to present.

I made my first pouch out of "buckskin color" split cowhide before I had a mentor or much experience. Since that pouch was too soft and always folded in on itself when I reached in to get something, I was determined my next shot pouch would not do that. So instead of going with too thin of leather, I went with leather that was most likely thicker than a normal Civilian Pouch.

Since I could only afford one pouch in those days and needed to use it for both a Rifle and my Brown Bess Carbine, I came across a piece of oiled leather that was probably 5 or 6 oz, though of soft enough temper to use for a Shot Pouch. I modeled it somewhat after a FIW period Military Shot pouch and used two buckles on the strap, emulating that style as a Militia Shot Pouch. The ends of the center strap hung a little below the buckles for adjustment, but were thick enough that they laid flat. I never had a problem with the front buckle on that pouch, but looking back, I think it may have been because the 3 piece strap was of such thick leather.

Gus

 

[Grenadier1758]

LOL bag contents were not the original topic...

I had read stories of using ram rods for cooking I always assumed the meat was just skewered on, the added fork accessory sure makes the rod even more versatile. Is it something you had made up, or are they available on line somewhere I’d love to add one to my kit.

I can not actually document such a fork for the period. A friend made up a variety of things that were generally correct. His shovel was spot on as well as the ice creepers. I too liked the idea of a fork to use on the steel ramrod. Not so good a plan for the wooden rod though. He is no longer making them. Almost any blacksmith that can make a fork, can make a short fork that can be drilled and tapped for your ramrod.

Unit cooking was boiled in an iron kettle for the 6 man mess. Roasting was not approved for cooking.