Buckles on Shot Pouches?

[Grenadier1758]

Based on our research into the equipment a grenadier carried, we found that the whisk and pick were carried with the U section threaded through a hole in the strap under the match case as shown in the picture of my gear. Naturally my depiction of the Grenadier from the First Royal Regiment of Foot doesn't have that detail. It could have been looped over a button in the waistcoat, but our unit direction is to have it carried on the strap of the cartridge box.

 

[jon math]

I am not surprised that the organized English had specific methods for doing just about everything including how to boil their dinner. The story I read was by a New England re-enactor representing an F&I war era persona. He carried a Bess musket and mentioned using the ramrod for cooking. Being a local militia type I’d assume he acted one way on drill and another on his own hunting and farming. I was so taken with the story I looked into putting a metal rod on my shotgun. I found that the pipes drilled or formed for a wood rod just would not work with a steel rod and replacing them was just not something I’m skilled enough to do.

 

[Artificer]

Based on our research into the equipment a grenadier carried, we found that the whisk and pick were carried with the U section threaded through a hole in the strap under the match case as shown in the picture of my gear. Naturally my depiction of the Grenadier from the First Royal Regiment of Foot doesn't have that detail. It could have been looped over a button in the waistcoat, but our unit direction is to have it carried on the strap of the cartridge box.

Thank you for that information.

When I did a Private Soldier's impression in the Major's Coy of the 42nd RHR (AWI period), our research was they were not issued Cartridge Pouches; just Cartridge Boxes (I.E. "Belly" Boxes). We never found documentation on where the Whisk and Pick was worn or carried by them. Matter of fact, most our members did not have them. I still had mine from the earlier Cartridge Pouch I mentioned and wore it under the button of my waist coat a few times, but only when we were doing battle reenactments. However, I did not have documentation for that.

Gus

 

[Grenadier1758]

Perhaps LD and Grenadier 1758 can help with this?

Some of the original Whisk and Prick sets and at least one adjustable tinned Iron Powder Measure (that was not Military Issue) are hung on chains that have a sort of a bent and almost closed "U" shape piece in the middle that has small closed loops on the end of the "U" from which the chains were hung.

I have NO documentation for this, but have wondered if that closed "U" shape piece in the middle was sometimes used by being hung from a around a button on a waist coat? Then when the waist coat material of the button hole went over the button, it kept the Whisk and Pick in place? This would have given some security to keep the Whisk and Pick set from falling off, but still allowed it to be taken off when not in use for firing?

I have never used Whisk and Pick sets that way and always secured them by sewing the almost closed "U" shape piece to the strap of the shot pouch, but I have wondered if they were originally sometimes used around a waist coat button?

Gus

As I continue to go astray on the question of buckles on shot pouches, I went searching through the paintings by Morier, the Swiss painter who documented the uniforms of the various Grenadier companies of the British Army in 1751. I found this painting of the Coldstream Guards and the First Royal Foot Guards who are carrying their vent picks on the strap of the cartridge box.

I will admit that the detail of the brush and whisk are omitted from most of the regimental paintings.

 

[Artificer]

I am not surprised that the organized English had specific methods for doing just about everything including how to boil their dinner. The story I read was by a New England re-enactor representing an F&I war era persona. He carried a Bess musket and mentioned using the ramrod for cooking. Being a local militia type I’d assume he acted one way on drill and another on his own hunting and farming. I was so taken with the story I looked into putting a metal rod on my shotgun. I found that the pipes drilled or formed for a wood rod just would not work with a steel rod and replacing them was just not something I’m skilled enough to do.

Yeah, the 18th century British Army was very adamant about only allowing the soldiers to boil their rations. They particularly were very much against brazing the issued ration meat. I suspect that was because the salt beef or salt pork could not be counted on to still be good when issued. I don't know if they knew why boiling partially spoiled salted meat would make it safer to eat, but they knew it worked.


Using a period Steel Rammer or bayonet to braze meat was forbidden by the British Army, though there is evidence the Militia troops used either when they got away with it. The problem was they could too easily have softened the tempering of the rammer or bayonet, but I doubt most soldiers knew that.

The British Army had some severe problems with the quality of the steel and the correct hardening/tempering of Steel Rammers until some time after they had introduced the P 1756 Muskets. Earlier ones on P 1748 and early P 1756 Muskets often bent so badly in use they could not be returned through the rammer pipes after loading with them. A Bayonet that got over heated in a cooking fire would bend in use as well and definitely not something when that Army relied heavily on the bayonet.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Yes, certain details are often not in every one or even most of Morier's Paintings. Thank you for posting that one, though.

Gus

 

[Stumpkiller]

Them Grenadiers do make good targets. ;-)

 

[mmutarelli]

Grenadier,

Matt from NC here. I don't know if you have gotten the Kennedy Rifle pics. Here are some of my contemporary copy and an original. There is also a really good article in our local Southern Pines NC magazine Pinestraw about the Kennedy made in our county in the 18th and 19th centuries.

MM

 

[Grenadier1758]

Thanks for the additional pictures. The Kennedy rifle is coming along nicely if slowly. I have the parts and am getting ready to install hardware.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Thank you!!

Another question if I may.

We know that pan brushes, vent picks etc. existed. I assume the scarcity of them compared to other items from that time is more a function of their delicate nature rather than their numbers. Were they typically hung off bags like they are today? Powder measures certainly were commonly carried that way but was the rest of the stuff also? I’ve seen men’s bags so loaded with corded accessories, sheaths for knives, short starters, adjustable powder measures, loading blocks etc and they rattle so much that you hear the owner walking down the trail long before you see them. To my mind that is not the way to go hunting or staying safe when entering woods that most likely are full of enemies intent on killing you.

No they did not, that’s a modern thing. Measures, called “chargers” were about the only things dangling off bags back then. Those with so many things dangling like that look ridiculous, especially when using non-historically accurate crap like short starters.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Go back up a couple of messages to #24. The painting from 1751 shows a British Grenadier with a pan brush and pick on his strap. This is a military application that may not be common in civilian use.

A hunter would have such gear in the shot pouch or he would use a handful of grass to wipe the pan.

 

[BrownBear]

This is going to sound weird. Is there a historically correct side to install a buckle in the strap of a shot pouch?

I wear my bag under my right arm and am a right handed shooter. I prefer the buckle behind me so it will not snag the butt stock as I mount the rifle. Naturally if I need to adjust the length of the strap I need to remove the bag to do so; if I had it in front I could adjust while still wearing the pouch. I figure I need to adjust the length only when I change the thickness of my clothing, but I may mount the rifle or shotgun many times and I’d rather not damage the wood. So is it builder’s choice or is there a correct side?

My reasoning and experience reflect yours, but with one further insight. The buckle on the front wants to grab anything with a string on it while you're using it. Tangles are a PITA. Worth it to have the buckle on the back, not only to avoid stock clanks.

Another reason to shorten the strap: When you get into really tough tangles, it's nice to synch that strap up real short and pull the bag further up into your armpit. You can still get to it when adjusted right, but it's great not to have the bag slinging around when you stoop or crawl, and sometimes a guy just needs both hands to navigate, making it pointless to try pinching the bag under your arm to control it. That's proven especially true for me when laying flat waiting for ducks, too.