Builders of poor folks rifles?

[rich pierce]

Sending you a PM

 

[tenngun]

Thx

 

[Wes/Tex]

If you guys have a good photo of an original, can I share? Most really good photos are of weathered modern copies, and no one was more surprised than moi to find makers who specialize in plain and simple! One comment I did find was to remind a poster that considering where the guns came from, some may have been made for Amish or Mennonite customer who would have eschewed the fancy carving and brass decoration we so now associate with Pennsylvania rifles.

 

[smo]

Some may have been made by the Amish or Mennonite Craftsmen.

Most of the ones I’ve seen were pretty handy with hand tools. :idunno:

 

[Stumpkiller]

Don't confuse the Amish with the Moravians. I don't think the Amish did much towards firearms.

 

[Pete G]

Don't forget that carving and engraving did not cost the gunsmith anything more than his time. In the 18th century labor was cheap, materials not so much, and a little decoration could help sell a rifle without adding much to the price. Also practically everything in 18th century, from barns to furniture carried some sort of decoration.

 

[don hepler]

I wrote a short story, several years ago, about a mule. The story was based on life in the Shenandoah Valley, in the late 1700's. Doing some research, I discovered that a rifle or a fowler, was often handed down from father to son. In order to purchase a new rifle, a farmer would likely have to sell some livestock to pay, to have a rifle built. In my story, the eldest son was to receive a rifle and his father would have to sell a couple ewe's and a hog. He would also have to travel several miles to obtain the rifle. The cost would have been around ten dollars, which was quite a sum of money, in those days. The more that one could afford to trade, the better built rifle, one could have. However, a gun was a tool used to take wild game, in order to preserve the livestock. A fowler would have been more useful, than a rifle, in areas that had turkeys or other fowl game. Also at this time and in this area, German gun builders were relocating from Pennsylvania to northern Virginia, to do gunsmith and blacksmith work.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I think it's even simpler than that, though I agree. Then as today, poorer people had fewer, and lesser quality things. Richer people, had more, and better quality things. That said, if an article was very important to a poorer person, they might have it in a disproportionate quality to their means, and guys being guys, and gun's being very much a guy thing, as a matter of status they may be more inclined to have something nicer than their means might otherwise dictate.

That's a valid point. I've been told that the cost of labor back then (putting together the rifle, and any carving added) was very low compared to the cost of the components.

In the 1760's, on the frontier George Morgan was charging £7/10 for a rifle, and 60 shillings (£3) for a "neat fuzee" or even as low as 45 shillings (£2/5) for a used fuzee. Now we have no way of knowing how embellished were those rifles, nor how much hardware they had (did they omit the nose cap, was it a reinforcing band or a full nose cap, was there an entry thimble, how about the side plate, and butt plate how elaborate were those, and was there a toe-plate...wooden patch box cover or none ?)

THEN you have what I call the "bet your life" factor. You're out hunting deer for hides, and maybe you take a contract from time to time to hunt for meat, often bison. You can draw your rifle on credit, and at the end of your employment you likely will have paid it off, so...,

Do you go with an excellently made rifle that costs 6 weeks pay, BUT it's reliable, accurate, and top of what you can get since you might be close to a bison when you shoot it (inaccuracy or a clatch might get you stomped to death) and the Indians might try to take you out if they catch you (inaccuracy or a clatch might get you shot or tomahawked to death) ?

Or do you go cheap? The fusil will slay a bison, no question, and will take deer, and you can load it quick and dispatch an Indian that's pretty close to you so long as you don't misfire....

:idunno:

LD

 

[rich pierce]

LD, one more time perhaps?

Plain or fancy, a rifle was more expensive because of the cost of rifling the barrel. Then as now, double set triggers added cost, as did a brass box versus a sliding wooden box.

In the later percussion era, half stocked rifles cost more than full stocks due to the extra cost and labor of installing the rib.

 

[Cruzatte]

One comment I did find was to remind a poster that considering where the guns came from, some may have been made for Amish or Mennonite customer who would have eschewed the fancy carving and brass decoration we so now associate with Pennsylvania rifles.

Erm.....pardon the possible hijacking of this thread. But something that you should be aware of is that Amish were and still are strict pacifists, as were Mennonites. Owning firearms was not to be condoned. I know. I'm descended from a long line of Mennonites on both sides of my family.

 

[bender20]

They never hunted? Apparently you've never been privy to the Amish bear drives of central pa. Many of my Mennonite relatives are avid deer and duck hunters. Just because you're a pacifist doesn't mean you don't own firearms.

 

[tenngun]

??? I live near an Amish community and they hunt and shoot. I have been to rendezvous with Mennonites. I worked with a Mennonite nurse and I helped him modify a DGW Tennessee rifle in to something he liked better for hinting.

 

[Cruzatte]

??? I live near an Amish community and they hunt and shoot. I have been to rendezvous with Mennonites. I worked with a Mennonite nurse and I helped him modify a DGW Tennessee rifle in to something he liked better for hinting.

A bit of clarification here: Amish are not the same as Mennonites. They separated themselves from the Mennonite Church in the 17th century. Are we speaking of 18th century folk, or 21st century folk? Customs have changed in the last 300 years.

 

[tenngun]

I don’t know. Neither the Amish or Mennonites are vegetarian. They butchered and fished. I was raised in a fundamentalist pacifist cult that shunned military or civic involvement, but did hunt. I don’t know that the Amish would not have hunted three centuries ago. It’s biggist sticking point would not be the gun but if it was a wise use of time.

 

[MSW]

We lived in Hagerstown Maryland for a number of years and there were a bunch of Mennonites there ... not sure if they hunted or not.

They were very friendly, scrupulously honest and very industrious. The lady up the street baked the best pies i've ever tasted. Really nice folks.

 

[Elnathan]

Down here in NC there were quite a number of Quaker gunsmiths back in the 18th and 19th century.

I think the Deep River/early Jamestown school 'smiths were nearly exclusively Quakers. One of them reputedly bought back and destroyed a number of his own rifles after he discovered that they had been used at Guilford Courthouse against the British.

Hollywood has convinced a lot of folks that guns and violence are inseparably linked (ever see a movie with guns in it in which guns were NOT used to kill or threaten someone? I can't think of one). They didn't have that problem then.

Edited to add: The Moravians were sort of semi-pacifist, in that didn't believe in offensive warfare. Didn't stop them from making guns, though.

 

[tenngun]

Pacifism wasn’t the lay down like a door mat shown in Hollywood. Quakers Amish Mennonites ect were more then able to defend themselves. They avoided conflict and didn’t join the militia, they would turn the other cheek, once.

 

[smo]

Pacifism wasn’t the lay down like a door mat shown in Hollywood. Quakers Amish Mennonites ect were more then able to defend themselves. They avoided conflict and didn’t join the militia, they would turn the other cheek, once.

That was kinda the way i was taught the local Mennonites were .

 

[eggwelder]

the hutterites up here in Canada are the same way. turn the other cheek - once....grew up near a colony in Saskatchewan. I think they hunt geese but don`t need to, as mentioned, it is a big waste of time. honest, stone cold businessmen when it comes to money, but will give you the shirt off their back if you need it. if you buy from them expect fair prices, if you sell to them and they really want it, like farmland, they will out bid everyone.
they drive to town in big 9 to 12 passenger size vans, and the size of some of those boys, I wouldn`t mess with them, but people try from time to time.
would they own a fancy carved gun on purpose? probably not, but don`t think they`d throw it away either.

 

[54ball]

Where I read this.....I forget....you know how that goes. :wink:

A fine Quaker built NC rifle was used by a militiaman in the Battle of Guilford Courthouse.
Sometime after the battle the Quaker maker shows up at the militiaman's house asking for the rifle. He asked if the rifle was used in the battle. When the militiaman said it was, the Quaker busted the rifle on the closest tree.

He told the man his rifles were a tool to feed and defend his family, not an implement of war to take men's lives.