Building a hawken from a kit.

[frankie]

Im a stockmaker by trade since 1994. I have never built a muzzleloader. Im really wanting to build a hawken half stock from a pecatonica kit.. I called the company and they said the hawken kits are a little difficult for beginner. I should of asked them why but I didn't. I am very experienced in inletting wood to metal and I dont believe I will have trouble with that aspect. I dont want to order one and get myself in a regret. Do you all think this is something I should stay away from? I have some smarts when it comes to the mechanics of a rifle. I have several BP rifles I shoot. Thank you for any advice.

 

[LawrenceA]

I doubt you have anything to worry about as far as inletting.
What about lining up components for drilling and how is your filework?
Personally I think if you do your homework. Take a good look at Bill Raby's videos and you should be good to go.

At the end of the day is this a risk you wish to take?

 

[necchi]

What kid of "stocks" do you make?
Honest question. It's a matter of architecture fitting and detail that makes the "hawken" frame an intermediate to advanced build.
I ask because,, roughing 700 blanks is different than "glass bedding" a grade 4 walnut and dropping the comb 3 degrees with reduced cheek.

 

[Tom A Hawk]

A Hawken half-stock from TOW was my very first build. I suggest temporarily affixing the tang to the hook breech and filing both together. Then inlet both as an assembled unit. Other than that, the most challenging aspects I found were related to drilling and tapping. Use a drill press and triple check all alignments.

 

[rich pierce]

Why a Hawken is harder than a traditional longrifle:
Fitting hooked breech
Long tang to inlet
trigger bar to inlet
Double set triggers to position and set up properly
Drilling tang bolts on center on narrow tang and hitting trigger bar on center
Forestock keys instead of pins
Affixing rib to barrel

 

[dave_person]

Hi Frankie,
I would say go for it but do some research first so you know what a Hawken rifle looked like. Don't rely on internet images of some guys modern version. Look at photos of originals and there are many available online and in books. Despite your experience, I urge you to get plans or draw your own so you know how everything fits. I've built many muzzleloaders over 40 years and still draw up plans for guns I've not built before. Finally, there is a fundamental difference between modern gun stocks and most muzzleloaders. On modern guns the stock either sits below the metal action or is interrupted by it. On a muzzleloader like a Hawken or long rifles, there is no big receiver and action and the stock flows organically from the breech of the barrel. The forestocks are thin, the lock and side panels merge gracefully into the wrist, etc. For example, one of Allen Martin's favorite sayings is "to get a fore stock slimmed correctly you shave off wood from the sides until you get scared, and then you take a little more off". Often someone with even considerable experience making good modern stocks misses the contouring that gives those muzzleloaders their distinctive elegance and graceful shapes. Again, drawings, and good photos of originals will help a lot. I doubt you would have any problems with the inletting tasks on a Hawken despite the fact that they are more challenging than many other muzzleloaders as Rich described previously. Good luck.

dave

 

[ord sgt]

My first Pennsylvania long rifle was built with a stock from Pecatonia. I had no experience building anything other than a T/C kit. Inletting the lock and trigger was the most difficult part of the build. I still have the rifle. Yes, it can be done. My results may vary from yours.

 

[tenngun]

I’m a big fan of Pecotonic so Don’t take this wrong. I’m not a big fan of Hawken rifles because 1) 70s up to the 80s that’s what every buckskiners and his brother wanted, it came to represent all ml guns and historically that wasn’t the case 2) I like flints and fire in my face and as Hawken in flint was few and far between I avoid them,3) I’m in to earlier periods. About the time the brothers H opened their shop is about the last of my outfits
If you want the very best Hawken you can get go to the Hawken shop for your stuff.
I don’t doubt your skill, so I’ll venture you will have no trouble, it’s the matter of you putting a hundred to two hundred hours in to a project to get a gun less then a ‘real Hawken’

 

[Robby]

Everything has pretty much been said and said well. The only thing I would add, you have experience with inletting, and as a stocker you have access to wood. After you have followed Daves advise you may find that you don't want someone else's interpretation of a Hawken in their pre-carved stock with very little wiggle room. Make it your own based on what you have learned. Best of luck to you!!!
Robby

 

[Vaino]

Shown below is a Pecatonica Hawken that I built a few yrs ago. Upon receiving the kit I noticed that the lock inlet was mislocated so I drove to Pecatonica. They verified that it indeed was wrong and carved a new stock while I waited,....it was a grade 5 which is their top grade and replaced the grade 4 of the original. Naturally I left in a very good mood. Their Bplate was modified for less curve....don't like an upper arm mount. Had no further problems w/ this kit...the excellent curl doesn't show in the pic because the stain is dark but it's quite evident "in person".....Fred

 

[user 34300]

The tang and lock inlets are difficult. The slanted hooked breech tang wants to move foreword as you inlet, that makes a gap on the tang. The tang being hour glass shape and long has to go straight down into the stock. The wrist is not parallel with the barrel or hooked breech face. When it is done it needs to land in the correct place on the lock plate. Easy....

I went through two precaves before I gave up and built from a plank. The plank was easier than the precarve. In the process the tang and lockplate and hammer needed to be replaced because I modified them to work with the precarves. . It was a comedy of errors. It was around my 20th ML build and 40 years of experience stock making. On the upside the one I made from a plank is very nice.

I also did a half stock Leman percussion in 54 cal. It is the same general layout as a hawken but much simpler in construction. It is also much lighter. I would grab that one first for a hunt. The Hawken is cumbersome.

 

[Spikebuck]

Im really wanting to build a hawken half stock from a pecatonica kit..

Frankie, welcome to the forum!

You state you want to build from a kit, not a blank. I looked at Pecatonica's Hawken kit online. I see that it is pictured with the lock inlet started. If you do pursue this, then you would need to inlet the lock plate first and then inlet the barrel and tang (as stated earlier, temporarily connect them and inlet as one.) You might be able to order the stock without the lock inlet started at all, in which case you would inlet the barrel/tang first, then the lock plate.

I built a full stock Hawken from a Track of the Wolf kit. Mine was flint and fulllstock, so it's not going to be quite the same as a percussion half-stock, but there are similarities. One thing the Pecatonica picture appears to show is a comb that doesn't look to be at the proper angle for a Hawken....my Track kit was the same...too "straight stocked." Net...as previously suggested, study pictures of actual Hawken rifles to understand the architecture.

If I were to get ANY Hawken again, it would have a tapered octagon barrel to reduce weight up front vs the straight octagon most kits come with. It probably would not reduce overall weight, just move it further back for better balance since the tapered barrels are usually 1 1/8" at the breach for larger calibers. I would also change my key retainers to pins vs the screw thing I dreamed up.

While more pricey, you may want to look at the kit offered by The Hawken Shop. These come with tapered barrels. This link has lots of information including a downloadable construction manual you can review.

Hawken Rifle Kit - The Hawken Shop

While not a percussion half stock, my build photo album (with explanations if you double click on any pic) might give you an idea of what all is involved in a Hawken kit like this.

2014/15 Hawken Build | Flickr

 

[frankie]

I doubt you have anything to worry about as far as inletting.
What about lining up components for drilling and how is your filework?
Personally I think if you do your homework. Take a good look at Bill Raby's videos and you should be good to go.

At the end of the day is this a risk you wish to take?

Thank you Lawrence

Frankie, welcome to the forum!

You state you want to build from a kit, not a blank. I looked at Pecatonica's Hawken kit online. I see that it is pictured with the lock inlet started. If you do pursue this, then you would need to inlet the lock plate first and then inlet the barrel and tang (as stated earlier, temporarily connect them and inlet as one.) You might be able to order the stock without the lock inlet started at all, in which case you would inlet the barrel/tang first, then the lock plate.

I built a full stock Hawken from a Track of the Wolf kit. Mine was flint and fulllstock, so it's not going to be quite the same as a percussion half-stock, but there are similarities. One thing the Pecatonica picture appears to show is a comb that doesn't look to be at the proper angle for a Hawken....my Track kit was the same...too "straight stocked." Net...as previously suggested, study pictures of actual Hawken rifles to understand the architecture.

If I were to get ANY Hawken again, it would have a tapered octagon barrel to reduce weight up front vs the straight octagon most kits come with. It probably would not reduce overall weight, just move it further back for better balance since the tapered barrels are usually 1 1/8" at the breach for larger calibers. I would also change my key retainers to pins vs the screw thing I dreamed up.

While more pricey, you may want to look at the kit offered by The Hawken Shop. These come with tapered barrels. This link has lots of information including a downloadable construction manual you can review.

Hawken Rifle Kit - The Hawken Shop

While not a percussion half stock, my build photo album (with explanations if you double click on any pic) might give you an idea of what all is involved in a Hawken kit like this.

2014/15 Hawken Build | Flickr

Theee most beautiful rifle I have ever seen. The workmanship is astounding. I noticed you have the top of the comb in perfect alignment with the top of the buttplate. That is more than a rifle it is art. I cant thank you enough for the pictures and the advice and I will use the advice.

 

[frankie]

The tang and lock inlets are difficult. The slanted hooked breech tang wants to move foreword as you inlet, that makes a gap on the tang. The tang being hour glass shape and long has to go straight down into the stock. The wrist is not parallel with the barrel or hooked breech face. When it is done it needs to land in the correct place on the lock plate. Easy....

I went through two precaves before I gave up and built from a plank. The plank was easier than the precarve. In the process the tang and lockplate and hammer needed to be replaced because I modified them to work with the precarves. . It was a comedy of errors. It was around my 20th ML build and 40 years of experience stock making. On the upside the one I made from a plank is very nice.

I also did a half stock Leman percussion in 54 cal. It is the same general layout as a hawken but much simpler in construction. It is also much lighter. I would grab that one first for a hunt. The Hawken is cumbersome.

Very very clean. Beautiful. I will take your advice. Pecatonica also advized me to the lehman as a first rifle build. Thank you very much.

 

[frankie]

Shown below is a Pecatonica Hawken that I built a few yrs ago. Upon receiving the kit I noticed that the lock inlet was mislocated so I drove to Pecatonica. They verified that it indeed was wrong and carved a new stock while I waited,....it was a grade 5 which is their top grade and replaced the grade 4 of the original. Naturally I left in a very good mood. Their Bplate was modified for less curve....don't like an upper arm mount. Had no further problems w/ this kit...the excellent curl doesn't show in the pic because the stain is dark but it's quite evident "in person".....Fred View attachment 114663View attachment 114664

Thank you. I really appreciate all the advice. I notice when someone ask a question on this forum everybody is very helpful! Very nice rifle. I really like the finish you put on it.

 

[frankie]

Everything has pretty much been said and said well. The only thing I would add, you have experience with inletting, and as a stocker you have access to wood. After you have followed Daves advise you may find that you don't want someone else's interpretation of a Hawken in their pre-carved stock with very little wiggle room. Make it your own based on what you have learned. Best of luck to you!!!
Robby

Thank you Roby

 

[frankie]

I’m a big fan of Pecotonic so Don’t take this wrong. I’m not a big fan of Hawken rifles because 1) 70s up to the 80s that’s what every buckskiners and his brother wanted, it came to represent all ml guns and historically that wasn’t the case 2) I like flints and fire in my face and as Hawken in flint was few and far between I avoid them,3) I’m in to earlier periods. About the time the brothers H opened their shop is about the last of my outfits
If you want the very best Hawken you can get go to the Hawken shop for your stuff.
I don’t doubt your skill, so I’ll venture you will have no trouble, it’s the matter of you putting a hundred to two hundred hours in to a project to get a gun less then a ‘real Hawken’

Ill have between 140 to 200 hours in most guns I do. 1885 winchesters and bolt guns. If I do them with skeleton grip caps or buttplate it even more. A skeleton grip cap with the wood checkered and a border will take me 40 hours alone. The inletting I think I can do, its the lining up of the metal I will have to figure out. Thank you.

 

[frankie]

Hi Frankie,
I would say go for it but do some research first so you know what a Hawken rifle looked like. Don't rely on internet images of some guys modern version. Look at photos of originals and there are many available online and in books. Despite your experience, I urge you to get plans or draw your own so you know how everything fits. I've built many muzzleloaders over 40 years and still draw up plans for guns I've not built before. Finally, there is a fundamental difference between modern gun stocks and most muzzleloaders. On modern guns the stock either sits below the metal action or is interrupted by it. On a muzzleloader like a Hawken or long rifles, there is no big receiver and action and the stock flows organically from the breech of the barrel. The forestocks are thin, the lock and side panels merge gracefully into the wrist, etc. For example, one of Allen Martin's favorite sayings is "to get a fore stock slimmed correctly you shave off wood from the sides until you get scared, and then you take a little more off". Often someone with even considerable experience making good modern stocks misses the contouring that gives those muzzleloaders their distinctive elegance and graceful shapes. Again, drawings, and good photos of originals will help a lot. I doubt you would have any problems with the inletting tasks on a Hawken despite the fact that they are more challenging than many other muzzleloaders as Rich described previously. Good luck.

dave

Thank you Dave I am going to check with the hawken shop. I am used to doing alot of research on rifles before I build them. This will be my first muzzleloader. I cant wait.

 

[frankie]

Why a Hawken is harder than a traditional longrifle:
Fitting hooked breech
Long tang to inlet
trigger bar to inlet
Double set triggers to position and set up properly
Drilling tang bolts on center on narrow tang and hitting trigger bar on center
Forestock keys instead of pins
Affixing rib to barrel

I plan on putting all I have into it. I look forward to the challenge. Thank you Rich

 

[frankie]

A Hawken half-stock from TOW was my very first build. I suggest temporarily affixing the tang to the hook breech and filing both together. Then inlet both as an assembled unit. Other than that, the most challenging aspects I found were related to drilling and tapping. Use a drill press and triple check all alignments.

View attachment 114615

Thanks Tom, looking at those is why I am wanting to do it.