bullet selection help

[chainsaw]

Hello,long time lurker with a quick question.
I just bought a CVA grey wolf in 50 cal.I want to order some bullets for it so when the gun and bullets will get here at about the same time.I was looking at Hornady great plains bullets because the price is pretty low,and I will need to shoot this gun quite a bit,I am fairly new to black powder.
My question pertains to the Hornady bullet not having any visible lube,at least not in the catalog picture.will I need to buy seperate lube?If so,how do I go about lubing the bullets?
Also,what should my guns bore slug to,seems there more than one diameter bullet for .50 caliber.I was wondering if cast bullets for .50 cal black powder cartridges will work in a muzzle loader?
Thanks.Rich

 

[Adui]

Hi and welcome to the forum. I just looked up the info on that rifle, it appears to have a 1:32 twist. Conventional wisdom would be to use conical bullets (what you referred to) however, for economical shooting I would try a patch roundball. Get some .490 round ball and some lubed patches in .015 thickness and try that first. You might find it likes this, but it might not, only way to know is to try it. I do know that would be far more economical to shoot than bullets until you learn to cast your own.

If it turns out that you cant get any accuracy out of a round ball, then get some REAL bullets, or other bullets that you can eventually get a mold for so you can learn to make your own. (Assuming you decide to dive into the hobby that far )

Of course all this depends on what kind of shooting you want to do. I know an older gentleman i shoot with that just wants to send lead down range. He likes it when he hits close to center, but as long as he's shooting that's what counts to him. If sending lead down range is the primary concern, patched round ball will always be cheaper than any conicals I have seen..

 

[Zonie]

Just so chainsaw knows what your talking about, REAL bullets stands for Rifle Engraved At Loading.

In other words, they have a band that is slightly larger than the bore size but smaller than the groove size for the gun.

They have to be tapped into the muzzle to start them and "engrave" the rifling into the band.

Although they usually come with some lube on them is best to fill the grooves with a lube like Bore Butter or some other non-petroleum type grease.

 

[onthefarm]

The Hornaday Great Plains do have lube on them, so you should be OK.

I also have a fast twist rifle, a Lyman GPH .50, and sometimes shoot round ball in it, especially offhand practice. I asked that question way back and my understanding is that you should use a low charge, ie 30-50 grains when you do this so the ball doesn't strip itself over the rifling. It seemed to work really well. It was economical, but also pretty accurate. The Hornaday will run you $.65 without powder at the prices i've seen lately, but the RB will run around $.16.

Good luck and have fun with that Grey Wolf.

 

[chainsaw]

Thanks,Onthefarm.Thats good info for sure.I will be getting a few hundred round balls to practice with.As soon as I find a good source for lead,I plan on learning to cast.Should be fun since I would like to cast for my .44 mag and 45acp too.

 

[William O.]

It's good that you are looking at getting into casting as it will save you quite a bit of money in the long run. The Great Plains bullets come with a dry lube on them and shouldn't need anything more, although it always looks like all the lube has about fallen off of them. My fast twist barrel was most accurate using the 250 grain REAL bullets.

 

[Spikebuck]

50 cal Hornady GP are $9.79/20 on ToW....of course you have shipping on top of that, so only ordering 1 box would be pretty expensive.

I've had excellent results with this bullet in .54. I've never used extra lube and after an initial "tap" with the short starter they go right down.

Another option may be the buffalo ball-et, which can be quite economical. You can get them directly from Buffalo Bullet Co or ToW sells the 50 cal version for $14.99 for 50. They also have a slightly larger 270 gr conical for the same price.

 

[fishspike]

With a 1-32 a solid lead conical with a lenth of 1.25 inch at about 1100 feet per second is about optimal in .50. The Great plains and minis would probable need a light load and the round ball even lighter. My guess is 1.25 lenth with about 70 grns 2ff black should be tight to load. Many casters with cast solid lead piustol bullets bullet much cheaper the you can buy muzzle loading specials look at cowboy action bullets for the right lenth and diameter. I worn you this is a proccess of trail and error. I willl also guess the round ball accuracy will be at 25gns of powder and only good for plinking or rabbits.

Bob

 

[Rat Trapper]

The Hornady Great Plains bullet is my go to bullet for both the 50 & 54 caliber TC Hawken rifles. Make sure you use a felt wad under the bullet. These bullet work best for me when loaded up near max. If you don' use the felt wad, you will end up with the barrel leaded up. Ox-Yoke orginals are the brand of wads that I use. TC sells the same wads under the label of bore buttons. The wads are lubed.

 

[crockett]

chainsaw- as a general rule, the longer the bullet the faster barrel twist required to stabilize it in flight. The 1/32 is faster than the 1/48 but there are some faster twists being made. You probably ought to try a variety of bullets but I might think about calling CVA and asking them what they would recommend and what powder charge. A change in powder charge changes velocity which influences accuracy. An example of powder charge is the CVA power belt type bullets- with heavy charges they are not often accurate but drop the charge to 90 grains and they are accurate and still devasting on most game.

 

[fishspike]

The thing about conicals in muzzleloaders is they are a little tougher to stabilize than round balls, you never see a baseball wobble in flight but think football. Since we load down the muzzle we are loading a land sized projectile unlike a cartage rifle where the bullet is much closer to groove size.

A REAL will work but it still needs to be the right length for a given twist rate and velocity. Grease rings have recesses between them which don't engage the rifling so they fudge up the bullet length equation.

All these these things conspire to make shooting conicals in fast twist muzzleloaders a little more of a science. Fortunately there are on line calculators that do the heavy lifting basically using greenhills formula and adding velocity as a variable. To prevent leading velocity is best kept under 1200 fps so by punching in caliber, velocity, and twist rate you get and optimal bullet length you can then go to the bullet mould dimensions specs and see what's in the ballpark. Then it's got to be sized so it's tight but not so tight it gets distorted on loading.

This is not to mention paper patching and the other more specialized disciplines.

The 1.25 inch bullet length for a .50 cal with a 1-32 twist at 1100 fps is right off the calculator.

Bob

 

[nkbj]

Hello,long time lurker with a quick question.
I just bought a CVA grey wolf in 50 cal.I want to order some bullets for it so when the gun and bullets will get here at about the same time.I was looking at Hornady great plains bullets because the price is pretty low,and I will need to shoot this gun quite a bit,I am fairly new to black powder.
My question pertains to the Hornady bullet not having any visible lube,at least not in the catalog picture.will I need to buy seperate lube?If so,how do I go about lubing the bullets?
Also,what should my guns bore slug to,seems there more than one diameter bullet for .50 caliber.I was wondering if cast bullets for .50 cal black powder cartridges will work in a muzzle loader?
Thanks.Rich

The bullets for black powder cartridges are generally around 0.515" diameter. Fifty caliber muzzleloaders generally have a .500"-0.503" bore. So, they won't fit unless sized down to go in the bore. I've done that just to try it out so it can be done. And, you can leave the front of the bullet big to engrave on the rifling like a maxi if your press and dies are set up to allow it.

Besides the REAL, Lee Precision also makes a .50 pistol cartridge bullet mold that Idaho Ron uses paper patched. You could probably use it as-cast with lubed felt wads and a card (one of those things I keep meaning to get around to trying in a 22" Green Mountain carbine barrel).

 

[chainsaw]

Thanks to everyone for the excellent info,I appreciate it all.I finally recieved my rifle,ugly as sin,but I didn't buy it for the beauty.I plan on taking it out tomorrow to try it out.Long as it ain't snowin'.I have Hornady great plains and 1 box of "max-e-ball"bullets from Mountainman Muzzleloaders.They aren't lubed though,so I need to pick up some lube.Can I just smear them with lube or will I need a special tool to lube them?
Also,when you mention 1.25" bullets,is that 1.25"s of rifling contact not counting a grease groove?

 

[Sinner]

Experiment with different bullets and loads. Don't get hung up on what will and won't work. I have a .54 with a 1:60 twist that shoots the lee REAL conicals very accurately. There are lots of different bullets/loads for you to try. Half the fun of muzzleloading is trying different things out! You can use a variety of different lubes for non-lubed conicals, no special tools, just apply by hand or put in a baggy or whatever seems to work for you.
Any clubs nearby? It's a great way to get experience and see what others are using.

 

[fishspike]

The 1.25 is overall bullet length and doesn't account for grooves or nose type. Still 1.25 with grooves will be in the ball park. Google Greenhill and rifle twist for info. Also check out Idaho Ron's posts on paper patching.

Bob

 

[chainsaw]

Took the gun out today and I am not thrilled at all.I don't know if it's the load and bullet or the POS rear sight,but I've shot better patterns with a 12 ga. and 000 buckshot.I started at 80 gr of 777 and the Hornady plains bullets,285 gr.Worked up to 100 gr.and still squat for accuracy.I'm going to throw the rear sight in the road and hope a big truck runs it over and see if I can find a peep sight for it,I'm sure that would help.I will pick up some goex to try when I find some.Hopefully I can work something out.

 

[chainsaw]

I also just read that I can't use bullets that are more than twice the dia. in length to hunt with.So 1" is my length limit.
If anyone knows of a good peep sight that will fit a CVA grey wolf,I would much appreciate the info.
Thanks.

 

[fishspike]

The length for a 1-32 at 1100 Fps is 1.25. Shorter bullet will work with light loads longer with heavy load the is ballpark and look up greenhil.

 

[William O.]

No special tool is needed, just roll the lube into the grooves with your fingers and it will be fine.

 

[chainsaw]

The length for a 1-32 at 1100 Fps is 1.25. Shorter bullet will work with light loads longer with heavy load the is ballpark and look up greenhil.

I'll try slowing it down and see how it works.Do you think maybe the thing would shoot better with jacketed or saboted bullets?