burning wet BP

[Artificer]

VERY interesting experiment results, especially the one with the powder with oil in it.

May I ask what kind of oil you used? The reason I ask is because I wonder how flammable was the type of oil you used? I am not trying to critique your test, but I am curious. I wonder if the period Olive Oil or other Oils would provide similar results, if you used a petroleum based oil in your experiment?

From the time of at least the FIW, the British Army and any British American Military Force commonly "refreshed" powder by mixing it One to One with new powder - after spreading it out and allowing the used powder to dry, if it was wet. This practice was continued by the American Army in the AWI.

One of, if not the most common reasons they "refreshed" powder was from unloading the previous Night's Sentries' Muskets, each morning after the tour of Sentry Duty was over. Since those Musket Bores were oiled with Olive Oil or other Natural Oils and thus some of that used powder would have been slightly contaminated with those oils , your test sparked an interest in how much such contamination may or may not have affected the powder, even after it was "refreshed." It seems from your test that it may have made little or not any difference at all?

Gus

 

[inthex]

Thanks for this and all your post Spence. Maybe you need to be bumped up from 70 cal. to Iowa-Class. :hatsoff:

 

[Black Hand]

I wonder if it will generate enough pressure to expell a tightly patched ball. :hmm: Enjoy, J.D.

If a few grains of dry powder through the touchhole will expel a ball with force, I suspect it would...

 

[Billnpatti]

Good and very interesting experiment, Spence. I am truly amazed. :hmm: It disproves everything that I have believed and said about wet powder.

 

[Howie1968]

Great information sir!

 

[George]

Gus, I used a light machine oil in a spray can, oil for my bicycle. I haven't tried it with natural oils.

I remember a reference similar to your description of the method used to dry powder from pulled charges. It's from the Journal of John Joseph Henry, on Arnold's march to Quebec.

"Though we drew our loads every morning, from fear of the dampness of the atmosphere, yet the ball and powder were never lost. Our bullet-screws brought the first out with ease, and it was recast: the latter was carefully returned to the horn, where, if moist, it soon became dry."

In another experiment I did, trying to learn how to make 'tinder' from puffball mushroom, I made a very wet slurry of powder and painted it on pieces of dried fungus, let it dry and used it to catch a spark. Curious if wet powder could be dried and used, I dried the left-over mud, ground it up and set it off. It flashed in what seemed a normal way.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/291683/post/1438752/hl//fromsearch/1/

Spence

 

[Black Hand]

Moisture (water or stale urine) was used when mixing the powder, which was dried before use. Wetting should have little effect on the product if dried before use.

 

[Grumpa]

I posted this once before, but with many new members it may be worth repeating. In my early days of flintlocking, I had a charge left in my gun for several months after the season. I worried about rust (I wouldn't today), so I saturated the charge with WD40. Some time later, I took the rifle to my friend, who pulled the charge, which came out in one solid plug, ball, patch, and powder.

He placed the still dripping plug of powder in an ashtray, and touched a match to it. It fired up immediately.

Moral: It is never safe to assume that gunpowder has been deactivated.

 

[pwbsmokey]

Well there you go I can honestly say I would have thought there was no way that would work

I would certainly have agreed with you, but I have figured out something which I think is very important. The people of the historical period some of us are interested in were not idiots. If they write down something in a unequivocal way, no matter how much it disagrees with our modern thinking, it might be a good idea to at least give them the benefit of the doubt. We might learn something.

Spence

:thumbsup:

 

[M. De Land]

I'd be curios of the result if black powder were dissolved in water, dried out and then flame tested. Think I'll try it!

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

... need to try this and chronograph a wet load ...

 

[Black Hand]

I'd be curios of the result if black powder were dissolved in water, dried out and then flame tested. Think I'll try it!

Two of the three ingredients in black powder are not soluble in water. You might get a suspension but not a solution...

 

[Zonie]

I once had a suspension and a solution and they both were involved with each other.

I think I was in the 3rd grade and my buddies who lived across the street had taught me how to tie a real hangman's knot, complete with the noose
!!

The next day at school, out on the playground, I borrowed a girls jump rope and amazed my friends by tying the infamous knot.

They all thought it was just about the neatest thing they had ever seen.
Unfortunately, the teacher who was supervising the playground didn't agree with them and promptly marched me to the Principles office.

He called my mom at home and told her I was being suspended. She would need to come down to the school so she could take her trouble making son home.
My mom never had a drivers license or a car to drive so she had to call my dad at work.

To make a long story shorter, he wasn't at all pleased with the idea of driving to my school and when he got there he seemed to agree with the teacher and thought making a hangman's noose was a poor idea.

He wasn't even interested in whether the not was a good one with 13 complete turns of the rope before slipping it into the top loop and drawing it tight.

His solution to the problem was to take me home and give my butt a good beating. (This was back in the days when parents could do things like that without fearing the law.)

Anyway, that's my experience with suspensions and solutions.
Can't say I've ever wanted to have much to do with either of them since those early days in my life.

:grin:

Oh! OK. :redface:
Back to talking about wet powder.

 

[Artificer]

I remember a reference similar to your description of the method used to dry powder from pulled charges. It's from the Journal of John Joseph Henry, on Arnold's march to Quebec.

"Though we drew our loads every morning, from fear of the dampness of the atmosphere, yet the ball and powder were never lost. Our bullet-screws brought the first out with ease, and it was recast: the latter was carefully returned to the horn, where, if moist, it soon became dry."
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/291683/post/1438752/hl//fromsearch/1/

Spence

Spence, thanks for the follow up and the great quote.

That quote also shows the period belief that dampness may have caused the powder in the main charge not to go off and that was unacceptable in close proximity or contact with the enemy. Far better to pull the charges each morning and make sure the guns would go off, rather than taking the chance they would not go off correctly.

Gus

 

[Brokennock]

Spence, thank you once again for your contributions. I thought of some questions at the time of your original post, but feared you'd think me unappreciative of your contributions.
I still can't help but wonder, if one's patch/ball/wad/etc. combo is tight enough to create a good enough gas seal for good shooting performance, and if the patch/wad is well greased,,,, I have trouble believing that enough water can get past it to seriously wet the powder via the bore. Leaving the pan/flash hole or nipple as a moisture entry point, and there again, with some care taken, just how wet is the main charge really going to get? Barring the gun being submerged in some incident of misfortune. Certainly not to the point of stirred in soupyness. Am I missing something?

 

[George]

Brokennock, I've always agreed with your idea that it is unlikely water would get past a properly fitted patch/ball. It also seems unlikely that enough water could get to the touchhole to make soup of the main charge if even basic precautions are taken, but I can tell you from personal experience it can happen. When I first started hunting in rain I was using a .40 caliber rifle, and I followed the advice of the old timers, made a well-greased cow's knee, kept the muzzle mostly down, etc. At the end of a hunt in moderately hard rain my gun failed to fire when I tried to empty it. I found the prime was soup, and when I pulled the charge at home, so was the main charge. That had me scratching my head for some long time, how did that happen, I was very careful. Turns out, sometime when I had inadvertently raised the muzzle, water had run in a stream along the joint between the barrel and the stock in front of the lock. It went right under the cow's knee, into the pan and straight into the touch hole. I learned that day to lay a bead of paste lube in that barrel/stock joint for a foot or so from the lock forward. And to keep the %^Y&*^ muzzle down.

You would think that the old boys would have worked out ways to keep their powder dry in all circumstances, since their lives frequently depended on it. Surprisingly, that was apparently not the case.

In addition to the item by Spencer Records quoted above, Nicholas Cresswell, on the Ohio River, spring 1775, said: "Out of twelve Guns five were rendered unfit for present use by the wet, mine happened to be in good order and I loaded her with an ounce bullet and seven swan shot."

I enjoy the challenge of hunting in the rain, but I know very well that in spite of a lot of thought, preparation and practice, it's still very possible to fail in keeping my powder dry when it rains very hard.

For me, keeping my loaded gun dry enough to fire is dead easy when compared to having to reload in hard rain. Noah ain't in it. :grin:

Spence

 

[coloradoclyde]

He wasn't even interested in whether the not was a good one with 13 complete turns of the rope before slipping it into the top loop and drawing it tight.

His solution to the problem was to take me home and give my butt a good beating. (This was back in the days when parents could do things like that without fearing the law.)

It's a shame they tried to beat that creativity out of you.... A hangman's noose is just a bunch of twisted rope. A friend a mine uses it all the time to attach a rope to anything....it makes a real pretty knot, great for boat lanyards and such.
Now, if you were leading kids around the schoolyard with it by the neck..... :shocked2: :slap:


Spence. I think your test needs closer examination...... :grin:

 

[Onojutta]

It does seem to disprove the idea that pouring a little water into the powder charge will "kill" it.

I've heard of folks who wanted to unload their gun by pulling the ball so they dampened their powder charge with water.
They felt that once this was done it was safe to stand in front of the muzzle.

Very sobering. I once had a charge get wet during a rainy hunt and it would not fire. Although I didn't take any chances, I did assume that this condition meant that the gun was safe. Then when I got home, before I pulled the ball I dumped water down the barrel to ensure that it was safe.

The water at least helped to reduce the chance for sparking and accidental discharge, but now I know that it did not "de-activate" the powder.

Now if only there was a way to ignite wet priming powder......... :grin:

 

[Black Hand]

The water at least helped to reduce the chance for sparking and accidental discharge, but now I know that it did not "de-activate" the powder.

What potential sources of spark would you propose?

People are acting as if Black Powder is a magical material that will go off with the least provocation. You need a spark hot enough to ignite the powder and said spark would need to reach the main charge. This isn't going to happen through the muzzle end as you have the ball & patch in the way. It is unlikely a spark will make it through the nipple or touch-hole unless you have the best of conditions (spark from a cap or flint). Use common sense and remove the cap/empty the pan and drop the cock with the frizzen open.

Yes, by all means, treat a loaded gun with respect. But a loaded gun doesn't go off spontaneously and certainly not while someone is pulling a ball with a rod & screw unless you have some idiot pull the trigger on a cap or pan of prime...

 

[Patocazador]

What concerns me about this experiment is in shifting from the table top to a closed breech with a tight-fitting ball, access to oxygen is eliminated.
Oxygen (air) is necessary for anything to burn. It supports the combustion. Now you take a slurry, paste, whatever of black powder and place it into the breech. Then you compress (not possible with a liquid) the ball-patch combo and attempt to ignite it. Logic tells me that it will not be capable of igniting and burning except at the touch hole where air can reach it. Since there is no air trapped between the granules anymore because there are no granules, it is absolutely inert and safe.

The answer has to be that just the powder at the touch hole was wet in the example and the rest of the load was still granular with air present between the grains. When the "paste" was removed and replaced with dry powder, ignition occurred as usual.