Burst Barrel

[Shine]

:grin:

 

[azmntman]

:surrender:

 

[KHickam]

So,


What barrel makers use gun quality steel in manufacture of the barrels?

 

[jamesthomas]

I would like to know who offers the swamped barrel profiles that Colerain and Rice offers that use a gun barrel steel other than 12L14 that won't break the bank and you don't have to wait 3 to 6 months for? Green Mountain uses 1137 but from everything I've heard they will not make swamped barrels anymore.

 

[roundball]

These threads are always something...there isn't an iron clad scientific based comment in this thread...pro or con...that can indict without question, any one barrel over another that's being discussed...all supposition, speculation, with a dash of self-rightous indignation thrown in.
:wink:

Busy highways are very risky when crossing and/or driving on them...and people are slaughtered by the hundreds on them every day...but we keep using them.
By contrast, every time I safely drive to my range or hunting ground, I then enjoy the relative low risk of shooting muzzleloaders using barrels from T/C, GM, and Rice...and wouldn't hesitate to use Getz or Colerain if I had them too.

All of those 5 barrel brands do just fine when used as intended.
All of them would probably fail if not used properly.

:thumbsup:

 

[Shine]

But then we would have nothing to talk about. We would just sit here quietly making faces at each other :blah: :grin:

 

[jamesthomas]

Do any of your non-12L14 barrel makers make swamped barrels? if so who are they? Btw, I got a laugh off the "Making another run of pipe bombs" quote ,like their barrels are blowing up all the time :shake: . I also know who your taking about and its just like someone to bad mouth the competition :haha: . I'll say it again if 12L14 barrels are as bad as you and this other barrel maker say they are there would be all sorts of posts on the gun forums about busted rifles and smoothbores. Also don't give me data and stuff that happened 30+ years old, how about 10+ burst barrels in the last 5 years? with a proven 12L14 barrel? because if they are as bad as you say they are you should be able to find something.

 

[razorbritches]

Any barrel can fail given the right conditions. Instead of slinging mud in advance of the facts, a few tests and some research can give facts that could educate us all. The real truth is sometimes we never really know what causes some of these failures.

These men are seasoned shooters, not prone to mistakes, it could have happened but what if it didn't ?

What if he didn't make a mistake loading ?

what if it isn't free machining 12L14 ?

what if it isn't DOM tubing ?

what if there was no smokeless powder mixup ?

what then ?

Leave off the mud slinging, the facts, wherever they lead is all that matters.

 

[Heelerau]

My late young brother put a charge of novels no 69 smokeless down an original pat 1842 smooth bore, he fired it remotely. That split the breach straight line across the breach plug through the bolster just like you would cut a sausage. So neat that you could put the two parts together and solder them !! Not a hint of barrel bulge. But that was a best iron barrel. Don't expect barrel failures from properly loaded modern made muzzle loaders. Good no one was hurt, thanks for publishing the accident for our education.

Cheers

heelerau

 

[Stumpkiller]

My .54 Lehigh has a barrel of stress-relieved 12L14 and I'm not concerned in the least of having a burst barrel. No barrel steel is immune to idiot loading practices and I load mine conservatively and do what I can to pay attention to details.

 

[Rifleman1776]

preface: everything in the Dixie is notthe gospel according to Turner. Wasn't and still isn't. But there has been much of interest he did put in it.
I recall the Dixie folks once filled a length of barrel with bp and plugged both ends. It was ignited with a fuse. All the pressure was contained except for what came out the tiny touch hole. The barrel remained intact. I wonder what kind of barrel that was. An El Cheapo import, Douglas, GBQS? What? I would like to see that experiment repeated. And, also a deliberatly short started test with various barrels.

 

[kingsax26]

ok so here a really dumb question.....If DOM tubing is so suspect as a quality rifle barrel, and it is prone to failure any way....why is it being used in the first place? I may be exhibiting a little Naievity on my part...but I would think that a gun builder in todays world would ahve access to better stuff than DOM...I am having a fowler built...and my barrel was only 160.00 $$ so why even bother with DOM at all

 

[excess650]

ok so here a really dumb question.....If DOM tubing is so suspect as a quality rifle barrel, and it is prone to failure any way....why is it being used in the first place? I may be exhibiting a little Naievity on my part...but I would think that a gun builder in todays world would ahve access to better stuff than DOM...I am having a fowler built...and my barrel was only 160.00 $$ so why even bother with DOM at all

its cheap

 

[Dphar]

preface: everything in the Dixie is notthe gospel according to Turner. Wasn't and still isn't. But there has been much of interest he did put in it.
I recall the Dixie folks once filled a length of barrel with bp and plugged both ends. It was ignited with a fuse. All the pressure was contained except for what came out the tiny touch hole. The barrel remained intact. I wonder what kind of barrel that was. An El Cheapo import, Douglas, GBQS? What? I would like to see that experiment repeated. And, also a deliberatly short started test with various barrels.

The problem with proof testing at BP pressure levels is that ALL the steels will stand more pressure than BP will generate behind a projectile. (Even in closed bomb tests BP will not generate more than 100000 psi). UNLESS they are too brittle and/or riddled with lead/phosphorus/sulfur inclusions and they get tired of the pressure cycles or they have flaws because steel of the quality level has no quality control.
A barrel made of the cheap steel is not uniform so the lubricating metals may clump together in places. Cold rolled steels are intentionally made brittle so they will cut faster. Anyone who doubts this should go to the local steel supplier buy a piece of cold rolled, put it in the lathe and turn on it a little. Now put it in the forge and heat it to orange and allow to cool in the fire. Now put it back in the lathe and look at the difference in the chips. In most cases the stuff is gummy and does not make a chip but a lump. Yeah I have done this when making parts when the cold rolled was TOO brittle and could not be threaded.

This was for breech plugs where cold rolled works fine since it is not subject to internal pressure.
I have no idea what this alloy is, I quenched a piece of it to make sure it was not high carbon, but assume it was 1018 given where I got it.

Stress relieving leaded steels is not a good idea for barrel making according to Kelly since the lead may migrate. So while this may eliminate the brittleness it may cause other problems since the steel is low quality or the steel may have flaws that make it unsuitable regardless.
Lets revisit the tensile strength thing again. A brittle steel is considerably weakened when subjected to shock. Powder igniting is a shock loading and a pressure loading. Since leaded screw stock and its bretheren have poor "hoop strength" they do not tolerate internal pressure well so its not a good for "pressure vessels". This is why the steel company will tell people not to use it for gun barrels.
While the 1140M used in all those Remington shotgun barrels, until they got sued anyway, was plenty strong for the application, good quality etc etc. But it WORK HARDENS and becomes BRITTLE when flexed and shotgun barrels, having thin walls FLEX every shot. Eventually when they reached the point where they were hard enough to not flex the barrels BROKE.
The cold rolled screw stock barrel are made from a steel that is INTENTIONALLY brittle. They workharden it at the steel mill.
Kelly in one of is articles stated that the "weaker" 1137 makes a stronger barrel, the "stronger" 12L14 produces better tensile test numbers and a weaker barrel. So weak that it can fail at pressure levels far under
People will say that its better than an iron barrel. In the pressure levels we operate in its not its actually less safe than an properly welded best iron barrel.
Part of the problem is that mls even with low quality steel barrels seldom fail. If they do then just like here they automatically assume its a short started ball. How does the barrel split at the BREECH if its a short stared ball? Or blow at the breech and CUT THE LOCKPLATE IN TWO with NO deformation but fragments like a grenade? Yeah its happened at least thats what the photos showed.
I further maintain that a short started ball will not burst a barrel made of MODERN BARREL steels, 1137 which is not as good as 4150. They will simply buldge. Ductile steels will only ring the chamber when shot in a cartridge with a wad down on the smokeless powder. It was found however than 12L14 would often burst and fragment. There is a letter from the ASSRA from the same time frame as Kelly's letter stating that 12L14 is a no-no. This after several "incidents" using low pressure smokeless.
As a reference I examined a Shiloh Sharps 45-70 shot several thousand rounds with a Unique load listed in Lyman's book at the time. This chamber had numerous rings from the chamber mouth to the base of the cartridge case with a larger one that was at the base of the bullet. These had developed over the several thousand rounds the owner had fired, he ran an indoor range and this was his indoor load. The smaller rings looked like reamer marks unless looked at at 10-20x magnification then it was obvious it was a pressure rifle. This load produced about 30000 psi. Far more than a RB rifle will generate with BP and given the propellant all in the chamber most likely. The plant owner of the time called Ruger and was told they had Ruger #1s in 45-70 come in with over 100 rings in the chamber from this load. Ruger uses 4150 or similar.
Yet we are supposed to believe that a spaced ball will burst a barrel. It may very well if the steel is wrong. If one does some research I think they will find that the weld IRON barrels in Springfield Rifle Muskets were proved with 200 gr of Musket Powder and a Minie spaced 2" off the powder. This was the proof load. They had to pass this of the barrel maker who created the flawed barrel had to pay for it.
I submit that its impossible to burst a modern barrel steel ML barrel with a BP load no matter where the projectile is located. It will only bulge.
I know of a light weight GM 50 caliber swamp (1137 GB quality) that was shot powder, ball, powder, ball and suffered no damage.
In 45-70 white laboratories tested an 1137 barrel to 50000 psi without issue. This is well over the "hot" SAAMI standard for this cartridge of 28000.
The final problem is that the idea that they are shooting "pipe bombs" as a ML barrel maker who DOES NOT use 12L14 calls them.
Here is a series of photos of the breeching of a well known ML barrel maker who in 1993 got irate when I asked if he would cut me 2 barrels from 1 1/4" 1137 GB which I would furnish. I could only assume he lacked the knowledge to cut a barrel from anything but 12L14.
It was not cleaned properly but given the fouling trap the "breeching" had created it would have been impossible to clean it completely anyway. Most people never pull breeches on breeched barrels, they should this sort of thing is far too common. This from other makers I know who DO pull breeches. Why am I posting this? To illustrate that some of the barrel makers out there just do not give a darn. Nor will they admit any error since this is a legal matter if things go bad. With BP corrosion is not a great fear but if chlorate powder was used this is a serious safety concern.
As removed from the barrel.

After cleanup.

This is how it looks when installed. Its possible to see into the threads by looking down the grooves past the rebate on the plug.

The breech should be sealed like this one is.

I do not make or sell barrels. But I have worked where barrels were made and I know several barrel makers and I used to inspect barrels for flaws, specified chamber dimensions for a gun maker etc etc. I started making MLs before any of the current barrel makers were making barrels.
I did not just fall off a turnip truck.
Discussing poor quality barrel steels makes people uncomfortable. It makes me uncomfortable. I have a rifle I like a lot with a Douglas barrel I don't shoot anymore even though its highly accurate and I can shoot it very well too. Everytime I try to talk myself into taking it out to shoot it seems one of these discussions comes up and I decide not to. I am not a lizard that can regrow body parts.
Anyway, next time a barrel fails, don't automatically assume its faulty loading. In the typical American made ML barrel (the Italians use modern gun barrel steel in barrels) I think the major factory mades do here (they talk to lawyers). But the "custom" trade is stuck, through ignorance or sloth, with 12L14 for the most part, there are other options but people either don't know or believe it does not matter. I have seen posts by people who did not use alloy steels because they are harder to file.

Dan

 

[Eric Krewson]

I stopped by a friend's house a while ago, he was really in the dumps. He had short started his.40 this morning and blew the last 4" off the barrel as well as a sizable section of an nice curly maple stock. No one was hurt but a mighty fine rifle bit the dirt. It was one of those leaded steel barrels.

Pretty sure his friend is going to post pictures.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Part of the problem is that mls even with low quality steel barrels seldom fail.

Problem?

 

[okawbow]

This discussion is pointless without proper testing. So far, we don't even know what the original smoothbores barrel was made of. In the pictures, it looks awfully thin walled to me.

Why don't some of you with the opinions about barrel steel, set up some tests and video barrels fired with double loads, short started balls, smokeless powder, etc. Let's see which ones, if any, handle problems like those.

Back when I was young and ignorant; I made a 62 cal hawken with a "leaded" barrel. I proof tested it 3 times,with 360 grains 2F, and 2 tight patched balls. Everything looked fine, so I proceeded to fire thousands of shots with 180 grains 2F, and a .610 patched ball. I won many local shoots with that load in that rifle. It still shoots like new, and the bore, breech plug and all look perfect. 100 grains is plenty now. That said; I've been at a shoot where a T/C .50 rifle blew up and sent shrapnel everywhere with what the shooter said was 90 grains pyrodex and a maxiball. Which is the best barrel steel? Which one is dangerous?

Until I see legitimate tests, I only know about my own experiences.

 

[excess650]

YEAH!!!! All of my MLers have junk barrels....Getz, Colerain, Rice, Green Mountain, and Douglas. :bull:

 

[galamb]

I have zero "metal knowledge" yet come across this debate quite often.

I also have a rather lengthy article titled "heat treating for the muzzle-loader" written in 2006 by a James Kelly (no further info on him), but it is rather technical and covers many aspects of metal with regards to muzzle loading (from case hardening to heat treating.

This is one quote from the article -

"One may debate the merits of various steels, but one of the most important
properties is””availability! I know a little about this here in North America. Here are
some of the steels which are available in the U.S. A. in small quantities from www.mcmaster.com. They have other grades. One would do well to avoid any
resulphurized grade, such as one of the 11xx series. The 12xx series, in particular
12L14, have no place a firearm. The stringers of manganese sulphide which are
great for machinability reduce the metal’s toughness & ductility across the grain."

So if "this expert" is to be heeded, then not only is 12L14 "unsuitable" but he also specifically mentions to avoid 11xx series which would include the 1137 used by Green Mountain, would it not???

(or is 12L14 "really bad" and 1137 is only "sorta bad"? - come on, it's either "suitable" or "not-suitable")

So don't use 12L14 and avoid 1137 - hmmmm - doesn't that pretty much discount every muzzle loader barrel out there, at least North American produced??

------------------------
Prior to 1954 every reputable doctor and other authorities unanimously agreed and could provide reams of "proof" that running a mile at/under 4 minutes was "impossible" and even if it was somehow accomplished it would be "lethal".

Roger Bannister and the thousands that followed him proved that book science and reality are sometimes at odds with each other - maybe he could achieve this because he ran on "the road", not "on paper".

(and maybe a 12L14 muzzle loading barrel "doesn't know" it's made out of "the wrong steel")

Not disputing anyone's science here, mostly just thinking out loud.

 

[azmntman]

Good thinking! Accidents happen. I have only "production" barrels but have never had an issue.....

I do need to run a few patches in a couple though as prior to reading this forum several times a day for several months I was unaware what may have caused a patch to slip too loosely in part of the barrel and I recall one of mine may have this issue. If indeed its "bulged" (likely from a conical slipping fwd during an elk hunt) what can be done? Is it safe to rebore to a slightly larger caliber? I never considered checking the bullet to assure it had not slipped and that may be the case. Will check now (but I shoot 95% PRB these days).