Buttstock angle

[Canute Rex]

I have been looking at photos of wheellocks from the earlier part of the 17th century. There are, of course, cheek stock firearms, but also a variety with a regular shoulder stock. In some cases, a not-so-regular shoulder stock.

With some French firearms in particular there is a tendency for the angle of the buttplate to be non-perpendicular to the barrel. The toe of the buttplate will be far forward of the heel, making an almost 45 degree angle to the line of the barrel.

That seems impractical and uncomfortable. You'd think it would jump up off the shooter's shoulder. Even the weirdest looking club butt guns have a butt plate that is close to perpendicular. Then again, some later French guns have that cheek-whacking curved comb.

Does anyone know about the reason behind these strange buttstocks?

Here's one:

 

[Col. Batguano]

Just a speculation is that they were designed to be shot rested, with a ground planted fork far out on the fore end. Any idea if the butt is on the short end or not, like 12" or so? That might indicate it's maybe designed to be shot more off the chest than the shoulder, or to be fired in conjunction with wearing torso armor? All speculation on my part. Happy to be proven wrong by those that have actual knowledge of such things.

But otherwise, you're right. It does look like it'd be a cheek slapper.

 

[ChrisPer]

It looks good in profile. Maybe that was all it took to sell, like today's tacticool vs 1950s Dunlap classic remodeled sporters. Everybody wants to try something new. Remember, if someone gave the King one you can bet a dozen or a hundred orders were placed all over for that new look the King had.

Looks like another type to try out with a dummy. I am considering a project gun based on my Mortimer barrel so it can be swapped heavy .54 rifle to 12g shotgun, and a swappable butt system to try out petronel, fishtail butt matchlock, german cheek stock. Maybe also a field tripod and musket rest to try.

We see these things, all lined up in rows in Blackmore or other references, and we have no idea about how some were used. Stance, military drills, tactics, sporting conventions in target matches, might change and make a style less or more useful over time.

Why make the jump in Germany from cheek stock Wheellock to Jaeger butt flintlock?

 

[coloradoclyde]

Just a speculation is that they were designed to be shot rested,

Or.... downward from an elevated position like a wall or guard tower.

 

[robinghewitt]

Maybe you have to wear a fancy jerkin and a puff sleeved shirt to find out :idunno:

 

[coloradoclyde]

Perhaps the butt stock was meant to be cradled upon the bicep of the upper arm.....and not the shoulder.

 

[ChrisPer]

More likely the intention was that the shooter maintain an 'aristocratic posture' with head held high.
The gun plainly is not a military type, and was made in the same period that German wheellocks had cheek stocks so the user did not hunch over them in the way a straight stock might enforce.

 

[coloradoclyde]

To create maximum distance between the lock and the shooter's head?

 

[rickystl]

Always been a curiosity. We do know there was much firearm experimentation from the late 16th to Mid-17th Century. I guess we could include butt stock design in the mix.

Rick

 

[kruzer1]

I incorporated an angle like that in my matchlock and I regret it... from a shooting point of view. Now from a looks cool point of view I like it.

Only other thing I can think of is maybe it shoots better with armor on. I will have to try that (yes I do have good replica 16th century armor I built :grin: )

 

[Col. Batguano]

The aforementioned not withstanding, about what time period did the fixing of bayonets come in to practice? Speculating, maybe it was to make the butt a more pointed and formidable weapon as a club once it was discharged?

 

[Canute Rex]

Now I am wondering whether it was a transitional style between a cheek stock and a shoulder stock. There's not really a lot of drop in the comb and the LOP looks short.

It has sights, so the eye/face level has to be down on the stock. That makes me doubt the petronel off-the-chest hypothesis.

ChrisPer has the right idea - make it and try it.

 

[rickystl]

If you handle a number of original pieces, you will eventually notice the short LOP. I'm sure this is due to the general smaller stature of people back in the period.
I shoot a number of different "Eastern" style long guns. And the stature of the people in that region were even smaller than the Europeans. The common LOP is only about 11-12 inches. Makes them difficult to shoot off-hand. Even on a bench I find myself cupping my left hand over the butt stock to add length. Wish someone made a shooters shoulder pad about 2" thick. LOL

Rick

 

[Erzulis boat]

Interesting topic. We have to give tons of credit to the firearm pioneers, but also realize this was in a state of flux.

The guidelines for mechanism of fire and ergonomics were not established, and I think we see some arms that show this disconnect.

Modern arms that are engineered for rapid and close engagement (standing) typically have a toe inward butt profile, just not as exaggerated, so this particular arm isn't too far off the mark in that regard.

It's very much like the diamond frame bicycle. As soon as the first examples of the DF bicycle came out, it was obvious this was perhaps the ultimate solution (with current materials).

I personally think this arm was more an exercise in aesthetics, but at least the LOP is close.
I think it's very similar to some American LR schools that had those droopy butts. We shoot them and adapt, and then find the qualities that we extol, but realistically I think we know better and at the end of the day realize that the more "linear" (bore to stock) examples are superior.

Just my opinion. Hmmmmmmm.

 

[cynthialee]

I think you are right.
There was no real research or good guidelines to go by. They were trying things out.

Sometimes I wonder if everything had advanced as normal except firearm tech took a crawl...what would a modern wheel lock look like? What would a matchlock be?

just ruminations of an addled mind I am sure...

 

[Elnathan]

Modern arms that are engineered for rapid and close engagement (standing) typically have a toe inward butt profile, just not as exaggerated, so this particular arm isn't too far off the mark in that regard.

Which style of shooting is due to the reintroduction of body armor, I note.