C&B vs. bp cartridge

[rebel727]

I keep hearing/seeing it stated that C&B revolvers are more accurate with reduced loads. Around 15-20 grs. for a .44. I really don't see this. I tried a few light loads but didn't like them. I like the buck and roar. I also like it that when I hit something it knows it's been hit, not tickled. Now maybe if I just punched paper I might could make one hole groups at 15 yds. with reduced loads but that doesn't impress me. About the only time I punch paper is finding the difference between POA and POI. With my 35 gr. loads I don't seem to have a problem killing Coke cans at 25 yds. I can ring a 16" steel plate at 25 yds. without trying(unless I try to go fast). I don't hear the same thing being said about bp cartridge guns. Why is that? Seems to me the only real difference between a .44 C&B and a .45 Colt is the case. Why don't people advocate reuced loads in them for increased accuracy? I load 35 grs. in my 44-40's and they're pretty danged accurate. Just wondering.

 

[DanChamberlain]

I don't "advocate" reduced loads. If Bill Hickock loaded his navy revolvers with reduced loads...so would I. But I'd bet he went loaded with at least 25 grains of FFFg!

Dan

 

[mykeal]

I keep hearing/seeing it stated that C&B revolvers are more accurate with reduced loads. Around 15-20 grs. for a .44. I really don't see this. I tried a few light loads but didn't like them.

I don't know who you've been reading or talking to - I see nobody saying 15 to 20 gr in a .44 is the most accurate load.

I like the buck and roar. I also like it that when I hit something it knows it's been hit, not tickled.

I take it you'd be willing to stand in front of an 1860 Army loaded with 15 gr of fffg and a .454 round ball and 'be tickled'? I don't think that's an adequate load for that gun at all, but I still wouldn't sneer at it like that if it were aimed at me. You need to be careful you don't give some newbie the idea that 15 gr won't do any damage.

 

[mazo kid]

A lot of times, a reduced load in revolver or rifle is more accurate than a maximum load. It is done sometimes in BP cartridge, but is a bit more work to get the fillers, wads, etc to the right height so there is no air space between powder and bullet and to get the bullet seated to the right OAL. If using smokeless powder then it is not as much work and is done quite a bit as witness the CASS matches where the emphasis is on speed and minimum recoil.

 

[rebel727]

If using smokeless powder then it is not as much work and is done quite a bit as witness the CASS matches where the emphasis is on speed and minimum recoil.

Only by the gamers. I'm not a gamer.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

I keep hearing/seeing it stated that C&B revolvers are more accurate with reduced loads. Around 15-20 grs. for a .44. I really don't see this. I tried a few light loads but didn't like them. I like the buck and roar. I also like it that when I hit something it knows it's been hit, not tickled. Now maybe if I just punched paper I might could make one hole groups at 15 yds. with reduced loads but that doesn't impress me. About the only time I punch paper is finding the difference between POA and POI. With my 35 gr. loads I don't seem to have a problem killing Coke cans at 25 yds. I can ring a 16" steel plate at 25 yds. without trying(unless I try to go fast). I don't hear the same thing being said about bp cartridge guns. Why is that? Seems to me the only real difference between a .44 C&B and a .45 Colt is the case. Why don't people advocate reuced loads in them for increased accuracy? I load 35 grs. in my 44-40's and they're pretty danged accurate. Just wondering.

I too have seen similar posts from several folks regarding reduced loads in C&B revolvers. I also like "the buck and roar", and have no use for wimpy loads myself, even though I target shoot with them! I use what I deem to be "service loads", that is not at full maximum, but you know (and the target knows!) that you shot something :shocked2: . I enjoy competitions more when I shoot my "service" loads better than most/all of the other shooters using their wimpy loads! 50 grains of 3Fg in a Walker makes enough "roar" and it cuts perfectly round holes in the paper targets, not the tears that the wimp loads make! That being said, I still have to agree with mykeal that any amount of powder behind a ball needs to be respected!

As to the reduced loads in a .45 LC, I think that it has more to do with the fact that BP needs to be compressed uniformly from shot to shot for any sort of accuracy to be obtained. Loose BP floating-around in a .45 LC case just doesn't ignite well or produce efficient results. Several wonder-wads can be utilized when the cartridges are reloaded, but under pressure, some of the moisture of the lube would be transferred to the powder charge, thus creating yet another uniformity problem. So it's just easier to make the bullet head a little longer or use enough powder to begin with!

Dave

 

[rebel727]

, I still have to agree with mykeal that any amount of powder behind a ball needs to be respected!

I didn't mean to imply that it shouldn't be. It was just a figure of speech. I like to see something happen when a bullet hits. If I hit a Coke can full of water I want to see it explode not just fall over and bleed. If I hit a piece of wood I want to see splinters fly and see a big exit hole not hear a little thud and find the ball stuck halfway in it etc.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

I agree with you! Sorry to have given the wrong impression :redface: ! I realize that it was only a figure of speech!

Watermelon Destruct Loads of mine can be found on the Rifle threads :haha:

Dave

 

[prowler]

As to the reduced loads in a .45 LC, I think that it has more to do with the fact that BP needs to be compressed uniformly from shot to shot for any sort of accuracy to be obtained. Loose BP floating-around in a .45 LC case just doesn't ignite well or produce efficient results. Several wonder-wads can be utilized when the cartridges are reloaded, but under pressure, some of the moisture of the lube would be transferred to the powder charge, thus creating yet another uniformity problem. So it's just easier to make the bullet head a little longer or use enough powder to begin with!

For a reduced load in a .45 LC revolver, try using .45 Schofields. They use a lighter bullet and much less BP. I have shot .45 Schofields in my Vaquaros and Marlin Cowboy rifle for SASS for years. They load and cycle just fine. Recoil is a bit lighter, but accuracy is outstanding. The problem (if it is a problem) is that BP always requires a bit of compression. Same reason that we seat out PRB's and conicals tight against the BP in a muzzle loader.

 

[Leatherbark]

I agree. Plus light loads may be more dangerous to the shooter. Imagine a .451 ball bouncing back off of something and hitting you in the head at 50 fps...........ouch................Bob

 

[Blizzard of '93]

cvonsistent compression of BP is important for accuracy. I've found that about 24 grs. holds a tighter group (not much tho) than a max charge.
I use a 7.62X39 case (AK and SK case) as a measure for my .44 '58 Rem, it's 32gr 3F. near a max charge and room for a felt which seems to also tighten groups. hunting loads I use a waxed cardboard disc punched from juice cartons over powder to keep the greased slug off the powder. then I can use a little more powder.
being steady with the ram loading is important.

 

[mazo kid]

Rebel, I'm not a SASS or CASS shooter myself and have always felt that the gamers spoiled the sport by not using a load that would have normally been used. That said, I am also not a proponent of the "more is better" crowd, tending to make my loads respectable enough to get the job done with some authority, but not usually using maximum loads. It is more satisfying to get a little buck and roar, rather than using wimpy loads.

 

[Bountyhunter]

The gamers are always looking for the shortcuts. Subsequently, some of the competition shoots like IDPA I believe, are now requiring "Power factor" loads, which are a function of bullet weight and velocity.

So, what I find is that when I go down to the sissy loads, not saying they arent pleasant to shoot, but I get used to them and when I really want to get serious about a hunting or social engagement load, I have to work back up to keep from squintin and flinchin. Like Mazo sez, I dont get any particular rush out of pushing the .45LC to .44 Mag stats, even tho I know it will, I know for certain what my abilities are, and I know that I have shot through deer with 275 gr bullets at 950 fps out of a 7-1/2" barrel.

Now if'n Reb was to be comin to shoot, I'd sure figger it'd be fun to load him up a couple 40 grainers right in the middle of his cylinder, or a dandy BP his .45ACP magazine. If you havent ever seen the smoke and fire come out of a 1911 using BP, its worth the trip.

 

[John Taylor]

I loaded up a bunch of AA Winchester 12 gauge and took them to a trap shoot, what a hoot. Somehow my boss got some in his box just as he was going to shoot for score. The BP loads got the "bird" but the next couple of shots were misses. He knew he had been had when he looked back and saw guy laughing and rolling on the ground.

 

[rebel727]

Now if'n Reb was to be comin to shoot, I'd sure figger it'd be fun to load him up a couple 40 grainers right in the middle of his cylinder, or a dandy BP his .45ACP magazine. If you havent ever seen the smoke and fire come out of a 1911 using BP, its worth the trip.

I sometimes use 40 gr. loads so prolly wouldn't notice it. :rotf:

Gonna hafta try some black in my 1911. Soon as I get dies and mold handles. :thumbsup: