Came by a Musketoon ... Parker Hale?

[Heatseeker64]

G'day again from Australia!

Just came by this Parker Hale 1861 Musketoon for a decent price in unfired condition, still in the box:

A big bonus was the Sergeant's tool, and some brushes:

One quandary, although the barrel is marked "Parker Hale Birmingham" and there are British proof marks, the rifle doesn't have the customary roundel on the stock ... could this be one of the US assembled and stocked rifles made using PH manufactured components? The box is plain, and has no logos.

It was purchased in Australia in 1991, and has all the Parker Hale documentation:

Anyway, despite the lack of a roundel (doesn't worry me ... but I'm a great one for quests for useless information), it seems like a sweet little .58 cal thumper!

 

[torn moc]

My favorite Civil war gun!!! I envy you!
Mine is a Euroarms and shoots like an angel.
I dont how it could be any better but people do Love the Parker Hales!!!
ps,,,my euroarms has ph markings inside the lock..how did this occur???
are you gonna use yours to flatten kangaroos?
do they taste like venison?

 

[Heatseeker64]

My favorite Civil war gun!!! I envy you!
are you gonna use yours to flatten kangaroos?
do they taste like venison?

I reckon I'll only flatten the stupid ones ... they are mighty tasty!

 

[TFoley]

It is a REAL P-H, made in Birmingham.

Mine has a low four-figure serial # - what's yours?

Please tell David Minshall on this forum - he is compiling a record of P-H manufactured BP firearms.

tac

 

[Heatseeker64]

It is a REAL P-H, made in Birmingham.

Mine has a low four-figure serial # - what's yours?

Please tell David Minshall on this forum - he is compiling a record of P-H manufactured BP firearms.

tac

Hello again tac ... the serial is rather high - 10220, which leads me to believe it could be a "transitional PH" made up of genuine metal components, but stocked and assembled in the US ...

 

[tg]

Those are neat little guns, probably one of the last ML canoe guns.. :wink:

 

[poordevil]

I tend to agree that it may be one made in italy. I have the English P-H I got in 1974 when I was 17. Just took a buffalo in 2007 with it! My understanding is the Italy made ones were made by Gibbs (Navy Arms) and still used the Enfield pattern room gauges for the metal work and barrel in England with the progressive rifling(deeper at breach then narrowing toward the muzzle. then sent to Italy to be stocked, therefore no Cartough in the stock. As the other poster, mine has a 4 number Serial # and I don't think the English made ones went higher than 4 numbers. I could be wrong. But no doubt what you have is head and shoulders above the Euro. Arms and Arim Sport made ones. Those are very good,Yours is Splendid!

P.

 

[dgold]

It is a REAL P-H, made in Birmingham.

Mine has a low four-figure serial # - what's yours?

Please tell David Minshall on this forum - he is compiling a record of P-H manufactured BP firearms.

tac

How do you get hold of David Minshall, I've got one and would like to let him know.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Go to the top of the forum index, and click on members. Check under both David, and Minshall.

 

[Zonie]

All three of my Parker-Hale guns have two concentric circles with "PARKER HALE LTD" stamped between them marked on the right side of the butt.
These guns are my Musketoon, S/N 562X, a two band, S/N 446X and a three band, S/N 306X.

I bought all of these guns "used" so I can't say when they were made.
I can say that the workmanship on all of them is superb and I count myself very lucky to have them.

 

[Wolfbane]

Nice work Heatseeker, saw the pics first on AHN, but seeing them again really shows the quality. I think I might go for a round ball shooter for my next MLR, instead of a musketoon, but you have inspired me.

 

[ResearchPress]

I have seen detail of this carbine posted on another forum. From the serial number it appears to be a late production P/H.

I can determine what year the Parker-Hales were proofed if I am given the date code from the underside of the barrel. The tiny date code comprises two letters and a number and will be with the proof load information.

I am also seeking good quality photographs of all P-H models, including proof marks and other stamps.

Some information is on my web site at: Parker-Hale Muzzle Loading Rifles. This includes a link to a form that can be used to submit information, and posts can be made anonimously. The date codes are important as this helps tie down manufacture dates.

I will be updating thses pages over the winter months now the competition season is drawing to a close. Last match this year coming up next weekend!

David

 

[Heatseeker64]

Got the Musketoon home and completely pulled down the rifle - yep, she was new all right, and needed a thorough degreasing.

Yes, I agree these Parker Hales are finer than any other replica, but I'm afraid that owning a real Enfield Tower '53 musket has made me a judgemental snob. This rifle may need some bedding, and I wouldn't be surpised if parts of the lock are binding ... it's a lovely bit of timber but the fitting just doesn't have the finesse of a real Enfield.

You'd think with the barrel being round and the same diameter it would be simple enough to make a channel to suit, but this stock has all sorts of peaks and troughs.

I suppose it's just a case at attention to detail, skills, economies of scale and bygone eras.

Anyway, while the Musketoon was apart I scoured the barrel for any markings under the wood line and all I found was this:

I have a Parker Hale .451 Volunteer numbered 1385 which has identical markings, but none of the proofs you mentioned (believe me, I looked hard and they aren't there.

There was this stamp in the barrel channel, which appears to be an underlined "SILE":

Here is inside the lock ... again, a nice bit of work, but nothing like the precision of a real Enfield, and what is that scratch above the sear spring?

Just for interest's sake, I took the lock from my third Pattern 1858 Tower '53, and it doesn't even go close to fitting in the Parker Hale stock:

One plus with the Musketoon is the sight is a lot stouter than the one that was on my Volunteer, which was tinny by comparison.

Don't get me wrong, I'm rapt to have this little rifle, but the Enfields are a whole different league.

 

[Zonie]

The proof marks on my Musketoon's barrel match yours on the bottom including the
3 1/2 DRAMS BLACK POWDER
577 536 GRS bullet

In addition to this a crown over BP is marked on the barrel about 3/16 forward of the start of the tang.

No markings in the barrel channel.

The interior of my lock looks like yours (except for the little mark you mentioned).

My Musketoon's lockplate measures 5.420 long X 1.203 high.which exactly matches the lockplate on my 2 band and 3 band PH Enfield (within a few thousandths of an inch).

According to the statements I've heard about Parker-Hale they "borrowed" the original 145 year old gauges and built their rifled muskets to the sizes of those guages.
I can't explain why your original lock would be much different than the one on your Musketoon unless it's lock was made to different standards.
Of course that assumes the original Musketoons were made using the same locks.

I suppose it is possible that PH put a 2 or 3 bands lock into my Musketoon and the original Musketoon had a shorter lock plate?

 

[Heatseeker64]

Okay, a google search has revealed that Sile was a black powder gun manufacturer and distributor based in New York.

I have read of finished Parker Hale components being assembled and stocked in the US, and this could well be one of them.

That said, Sile could have been the subcontractor for the Parker Hale stocks all along, but I do question why there is no roundel on the stock of this example.

 

[ResearchPress]

The RC4 after the load detail on the underside of the barrel is the date code for 1990. That is when the barrel was proofed.

David