Can’t find a rifle!

[vintovka]

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1037728189

 

[fsuoutdoors]

Say there. Just had a thought. One stick to your guns on what you what, no pun intended. Two, don't know what your travel itinerary looks like but Friendship her in Indiana is coming up again in a few months. Very good chance you will be able to find what you are looking for there, might even be able to pick between candidates.

Could you elaborate on Friendship? I know nothing about it. Some kind of convention, or competition?

 

[fsuoutdoors]

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1037728189

That listing is not even close to a Frontier….not bright curly maple, no brass patch box, completely different stock design, and the wrong caliber.

Thanks for sharing. But I am trying hard to find something that is at least close to the Pedersoli Frontier.

 

[Mike in FL]

Pedersoli uses a very long chambered breechplug. It hurts reliability, particularly the first shot. That is not acceptable in a hunting rifle to me. The general styling and build techniques are not very traditional. The stock is goofie looking, the barrel is not swamped. Pedersoli's, overall quality has slipped quite a bit in the last few years.

Based on the Frontier price and what it is trying to be, but failing................

Drum role please,

Get a Kibler Woodsrunner

Seriously, given the price, the Kibler kit rifles are the best available today by any objective measure. You will never regret getting a Kibler.

Scota, are you referring to the patent breechplug? And why is it the first short is more susceptible to unreliability than subsequent loadings. I have the newer GPR flinter by Pedersoli and have not noticed that first shot issue.
It is not my first Ped and I find their guns are finished very well and are extra pretty for production guns even if not perfectly traditional. Sounds like you really know what you are talking about, more so than I. I do know they are expensive, maybe more expensive than any other mass produced muzzleloaders. Regarding the breech, I did learn to put the powder in slowly and sort of trickling it in, tapping the side of the rifle as the powder goes in because, I think, that helps the granules sort of settle, defeating that silly patent breech.

 

[French Colonial]

Could you elaborate on Friendship? I know nothing about it. Some kind of convention, or competition?

The NMLRA national muzzleloading championships are held in Friendship Indiana, during the nationals there are a ton of people and lots of stuff for sale.

There is a large flea market as well, the whole experience can empty your wallet pretty quick.

 

[mikesto44]

I would stay away from Sitting Fox muzzleloaders. It's a crap shoot at best. Not sure what Jim Kiblers people charge for putting his kits together. But once done you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between a custom build and a kit.JMHO

 

[fsuoutdoors]

I would stay away from Sitting Fox muzzleloaders. It's a manure shoot at best. Not sure what Jim Kiblers people charge for putting his kits together. But once done you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between a custom build and a kit.JMHO

You would stay away from Sitting Fox finished rifles? Or their kits? Or both??

I just spoke with a private custom builder, that supposedly builds many of the rifles for Sitting Fox. He has offered to build my a semi-custom rifle that looks very similar to the Pedersoli Frontier, but supposedly of MUCH higher quality.

But several people have made negative comments towards Sitting Fox. With this guy being one of their builders, I wonder if that should be a concern??

 

[Indy Durtdigger]

Could you elaborate on Friendship? I know nothing about it. Some kind of convention, or competition?

Rather than try to describe or elaborate on what French Colonial said this vid showcases the vender market fairly well. Gun makers, gun smiths, barrel makers, accoutrement of all sort and manner new and used, if its black powder related it'll be there usually in quantity. Several day event.

 

[Grenadier1758]

You would stay away from Sitting Fox finished rifles? Or their kits? Or both??

I just spoke with a private custom builder, that supposedly builds many of the rifles for Sitting Fox. He has offered to build my a semi-custom rifle that looks very similar to the Pedersoli Frontier, but supposedly of MUCH higher quality.

But several people have made negative comments towards Sitting Fox. With this guy being one of their builders, I wonder if that should be a concern??

The Sitting Fox parts are of acceptable quality. Sitting Fox uses a number of builders. Some are better than others. What examples does the builder show as an example of his skill? What is the source of the components of the parts that will go into the build? What is the configuration of the breech area? I would hope for a traditional breech. What lock will be used for the build. It is the lock that makes the difference between something suitable to hang on the wall and something very reliable to take hunting. Will the builder be tuning the lock? The lock is far more important than the pretty brass patch box. Will he be test firing the rifle before delivery? Will he be using a swamped baller for best balance and handling?

 

[Ohio Rusty]

I have 2 pedersoli flintlocks. There will not be a third. I swapped the lock on one to convert it to percussion. The other is either going to be sold or I'll end up buying a new vent & maybe a new lock to upgrade it. The ignition is simply too slow to really shoot well for a flincher like me.

I'm sorry you have bad feelings for Pedersoli guns. Pedersoli makes ALL the guns for the Italian Olympic Shooting Team and ALL their competition indoor and outdoor sports. I think that is pretty impressive. There are things you can do to make the lock and ignition more reliable and faster. The touch hole in the vent liner comes from the factory is too small. The hole should be about .070. All I had was a drill bit that was .064 but that made mine better. Be sure to push a bit of priming powder through the touch hole so the spark reaches the load faster. Polish to a mirror finish all the metal to metal contact parts in the lock. If you aren't comfortable taking the lock apart, send it to a good BP locksmith and have them polish everything. Use the lightest oil when oiling all contact points.
Ohio Rusty ><>

 

[mikesto44]

fsuoutdoors it's your money but I won't buy one of Sitting Fox's kits or have them build one for me. Period...
Its a lesson learned the hard way. It's not that Ray the owner is a bad guy or business. It's the fact that everything is a matter of who or where they get the parts from and who or how many people are involved in making the kit or building the gun for you..!
One thing everyone NEEDS to understand is just because their building guns to sell. Doesn't always mean their good at it...! I learned that the hard way too. That's why I build my own. I can deal with my screw ups....lol

 

[Two Elks]

I'

Hey guys, I am brand new to traditional muzzle loading, and brand new to the forum.

I have been SCOURING the interweb, trying to find a Pedersoli (even a Taylor’s branded) Frontier Maple Deluxe .54 Flintlock.
Apparently this rifle is unobtainium! After deep digging, I got in touch with the Italian Firearms Group (IFG) who does the majority of Pedersoli’s importing. They told me I could order the rifle, but looking at 15+ months!

I know I could go custom, and have spoken to several fine gun makers, but as you all know, similar or longer lead times, and significantly more money.

I have found the Pedersoli rifle in .50 cal….but was REALLY wanting the .54, as I plan to hunt elk sized animals, including some exotics, and had hoped to play around with the challenge of long range flintlock target shooting.

Anyone have any leads on where I could POSSIBLY find the rifle?? A note* I have searched preowned classifieds nearly everywhere.
Was hoping one of you would know a dealer/gun shop that may have one on a shelf, somewhere in the free world.

I've taken a lot of elk including a 7 x 7 with a 50 caliber T/C Hawkin. You don't really need a 54 caliber. I'd find a 50 caliber and learn to shoot it well.

 

[Nuthatch]

I'm sorry you have bad feelings for Pedersoli guns. Pedersoli makes ALL the guns for the Italian Olympic Shooting Team and ALL their competition indoor and outdoor sports. I think that is pretty impressive. There are things you can do to make the lock and ignition more reliable and faster. The touch hole in the vent liner comes from the factory is too small. The hole should be about .070. All I had was a drill bit that was .064 but that made mine better. Be sure to push a bit of priming powder through the touch hole so the spark reaches the load faster. Polish to a mirror finish all the metal to metal contact parts in the lock. If you aren't comfortable taking the lock apart, send it to a good BP locksmith and have them polish everything. Use the lightest oil when oiling all contact points.
Ohio Rusty ><>

The locks themselves aren't the problem for me. Yea, they can eat up flints but I don't much mind that part. Sparks are hitting the pan perfectly and the pan flashes reliably. I drilled out the flash hole on both to 1/16 (0.0625) since my next size up is 5/32 (0.078125). I can get fairly reliable ignition. It's just too delayed given my supernatural ability to anticipate recoil that's only fraction of a second away from the click of the lock. Best way to describe it is a solid "ka-boom" rather than "kboom." It aint much. Better shooters than I would probably be satisfied with that. But it's enough for a spazzy cat like me to push the sights off target without even noticing. With a percussion lock on the same gun (Kentucky), I can smack a 6" gong at 80 yards very reliably. Swap out to a flintlock, move the gong up to 25 yards and it will be pretty safe from me. As for the trade gun, I'm better with a longbow on a bad day. Locked into a sled, it's not bad for accuracy. Ignition is even more reliable than the Kentucky for me. But it's never as fast on a good day and that's enough for me to throw the shot.

In my opinion, if I have to push some powder into the touch hole to get it to go off, then something isn't right.

I've enjoyed taking and watching slow-motion video of locks going off. A good, fast ignition appears to go off before the fireball in the pan is reduced to smoke. In other words, there should be a jet of smoke coming out the vent and the muzzle before the fireball disappears and becomes a small cloud above the lock. This almost never happens with my Pedersolis. At best, maybe 1/10 with 1/20 shots more likely. Video footage of Kiblers I've seen has that ratio inverted. I'll want to test that for myself before committing any funds so it will be a while.

In percussion form, I'm perfectly satisfied with Pedersolis. Just not in flint. Yet I'm also puzzled by some of their choices. My Kentucky, for example, has a 1:48 twist (.50 cal). Why? A Kentucky should be primarily a roundball shooter, I feel. A 1:48 makes better sense for a Hawken variant. That wasn't a deal-breaker but I've had to keep velocities down in the 1500 fps range with that twist. Much faster and I lose accuracy. I thought about picking up a percussion Kentucky Scout but those come with a 1:32 twist. Nope. Still scratching my head on that one.

 

[user 34300]

The OP wants a long rifle for hunting. You will not find a finer hunting long rifle than a Kibler Woodsrunner in 54 caliber.

I am confused by the resistance to that or suggesting other guns that pale in comparison. The difference is that great.

If a guy enjoys shoddy guns that don't work properly, yet cost more money, I guess that is fine.

If you have no experience with Kibler rifles, I suggest looking at one and shooting it. IT is an eye opener.

 

[Snooterpup]

The OP wants a long rifle for hunting. You will not find a finer hunting long rifle than a Kibler Woodsrunner in 54 caliber.

I am confused by the resistance to that or suggesting other guns that pale in comparison. The difference is that great.

If a guy enjoys shoddy guns that don't work properly, yet cost more money, I guess that is fine.

If you have no experience with Kibler rifles, I suggest looking at one and shooting it. IT is an eye opener.

I am in full agreement. The Kibler round-faced lock is perfection. It’s that simple.
I keep on my soapbox about :
Quality lock
Traditional flat breech plug
Correctly centered touch hole
being the most important things for flintlock reliability. Kibler hits these three out of the park.
Anything less that that combination results in a disappointing experience.

 

[RobertIN]

No waiting

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/kibler-colonial-54.176954/

Gawd the contrast between the bright steel and dark wood with brass accents is *chefs kiss*.

 

[RobertIN]

It seems like none of the Kibler kits offer the gold patch box like the Ped Frontier.

I've never done a patchbox but in my head it doesn't seem like it would be too much trouble for somebody with experience to add on to a Kibler if the lines and style of the rest of the rifle are attractive to you. Just something to consider and hopefully other with more building experience will chime in with details about the possibility.

Also, you can choose whatever patchbox suits your style best wether it be period correct or just what you think looks nice. There are several designs for sale here:https://www.muzzleloaderbuilderssup...t_id=7310110.25097&next=75&product=Patchboxes and they're surprisingly inexpensive.

Edit: I see this has been mentioned by one or two others, hopefully the link I provided gives you a bit of inspiration for other possibilities.

Also, welcome

 

[deerstalkert]

The locks themselves aren't the problem for me. Yea, they can eat up flints but I don't much mind that part. Sparks are hitting the pan perfectly and the pan flashes reliably. I drilled out the flash hole on both to 1/16 (0.0625) since my next size up is 5/32 (0.078125). I can get fairly reliable ignition. It's just too delayed given my supernatural ability to anticipate recoil that's only fraction of a second away from the click of the lock. Best way to describe it is a solid "ka-boom" rather than "kboom." It aint much. Better shooters than I would probably be satisfied with that. But it's enough for a spazzy cat like me to push the sights off target without even noticing. With a percussion lock on the same gun (Kentucky), I can smack a 6" gong at 80 yards very reliably. Swap out to a flintlock, move the gong up to 25 yards and it will be pretty safe from me. As for the trade gun, I'm better with a longbow on a bad day. Locked into a sled, it's not bad for accuracy. Ignition is even more reliable than the Kentucky for me. But it's never as fast on a good day and that's enough for me to throw the shot.

In my opinion, if I have to push some powder into the touch hole to get it to go off, then something isn't right.

I've enjoyed taking and watching slow-motion video of locks going off. A good, fast ignition appears to go off before the fireball in the pan is reduced to smoke. In other words, there should be a jet of smoke coming out the vent and the muzzle before the fireball disappears and becomes a small cloud above the lock. This almost never happens with my Pedersolis. At best, maybe 1/10 with 1/20 shots more likely. Video footage of Kiblers I've seen has that ratio inverted. I'll want to test that for myself before committing any funds so it will be a while.

In percussion form, I'm perfectly satisfied with Pedersolis. Just not in flint. Yet I'm also puzzled by some of their choices. My Kentucky, for example, has a 1:48 twist (.50 cal). Why? A Kentucky should be primarily a roundball shooter, I feel. A 1:48 makes better sense for a Hawken variant. That wasn't a deal-breaker but I've had to keep velocities down in the 1500 fps range with that twist. Much faster and I lose accuracy. I thought about picking up a percussion Kentucky Scout but those come with a 1:32 twist. Nope. Still scratching my head on that one.

don't want to hijack the thread but just a word about the ka-boom.
try putting a vent pick in as far as you can before dumping the powder and seating the patch and ball. made a couple of my rifles instant ignition.

 

[boberator]

The locks themselves aren't the problem for me. Yea, they can eat up flints but I don't much mind that part. Sparks are hitting the pan perfectly and the pan flashes reliably. I drilled out the flash hole on both to 1/16 (0.0625) since my next size up is 5/32 (0.078125). I can get fairly reliable ignition. It's just too delayed given my supernatural ability to anticipate recoil that's only fraction of a second away from the click of the lock. Best way to describe it is a solid "ka-boom" rather than "kboom." It aint much. Better shooters than I would probably be satisfied with that. But it's enough for a spazzy cat like me to push the sights off target without even noticing. With a percussion lock on the same gun (Kentucky), I can smack a 6" gong at 80 yards very reliably. Swap out to a flintlock, move the gong up to 25 yards and it will be pretty safe from me. As for the trade gun, I'm better with a longbow on a bad day. Locked into a sled, it's not bad for accuracy. Ignition is even more reliable than the Kentucky for me. But it's never as fast on a good day and that's enough for me to throw the shot.

In my opinion, if I have to push some powder into the touch hole to get it to go off, then something isn't right.

I've enjoyed taking and watching slow-motion video of locks going off. A good, fast ignition appears to go off before the fireball in the pan is reduced to smoke. In other words, there should be a jet of smoke coming out the vent and the muzzle before the fireball disappears and becomes a small cloud above the lock. This almost never happens with my Pedersolis. At best, maybe 1/10 with 1/20 shots more likely. Video footage of Kiblers I've seen has that ratio inverted. I'll want to test that for myself before committing any funds so it will be a while.

In percussion form, I'm perfectly satisfied with Pedersolis. Just not in flint. Yet I'm also puzzled by some of their choices. My Kentucky, for example, has a 1:48 twist (.50 cal). Why? A Kentucky should be primarily a roundball shooter, I feel. A 1:48 makes better sense for a Hawken variant. That wasn't a deal-breaker but I've had to keep velocities down in the 1500 fps range with that twist. Much faster and I lose accuracy. I thought about picking up a percussion Kentucky Scout but those come with a 1:32 twist. Nope. Still scratching my head on that one.

Three trips to the range where you repeatedly fire very light loads can help you combat the flinch reflex. There is no need to abuse your shoulder shooting targets, especially fifty yards and closer.

 

[fsuoutdoors]

don't want to hijack the thread but just a word about the ka-boom.
try putting a vent pick in as far as you can before dumping the powder and seating the patch and ball. made a couple of my rifles instant ignition.

Do you leave the pick in, while dumping powder and seating PRB?