CAN A .45 DRIVE TACKS?

[flashpoint]

Been shooting a ML for only about 2 years now. So I have several questions. I shoot a Percussion .45 TC Seneca with a .440 Hornady lead PRB (which I assume is 127 grains) and 50 grains of Goex FFg. It is accurate out to 50-55 yards. Where I live here in the East, most shots are less than 75 yards. Some folks on here say that their rifles are tack drivers at 100 yards and sometimes beyond. #1 If I was able to get my .45 accurate to100 yards, would a 50 grain load of FFg pack enough punch to kill a Whitetail at that distance? #2 The TC handbook says that I should only use FFg from .50 to .90 grains maximum. When I was working up a load and shot .60 grains the accuracy fell way off so I didn't increase the powder charge anymore figuring it would be the same with 70,80 and 90 grains. Am I correct on this? #3 Having shot center fire rifles all my life with fine iron sights, how the heck do some shoot 100 yards with tack driver accuracy with the somewhat "chunky" open factory sights that I have seen on most Muzzleloaders including mine? Thanks all. Flashpoint!

 

[troy2000]

Awaiting replies on this one...

 

[Dale Lilly]

a pie tin at 100 yards is my 'tack driver' results, Polecat'

 

[appalichian hunter]

I am with Dale on this one if you can hit a 9in. pie plate at 100 yards your good to go, but I may also add that I personally will not shoot at a deer that far with a muzzle loader all my shots are about 60 yards or less and I have killled a bunch of them. Also I use the bigger bores, cal. 50-62 The longest shot I ever took was about 90 steps with a 54 cal. cap lock mountain rifle, (he is a dandy buck) the buck now graces my wall, the load was a .530 round ball,15 thousands cotton patch,80 grns 3 f goex, and my home brewed lube of bees wax olive oil and a dab of Crisco. keep the 100 yard shots and the tack driving for range work, use your woods skills and shot placement for the deer we owe it to them.

 

[Bad Karma]

First, there’s no law saying you can’t replace the sights that came on your rifle. A peep sight with a finer blade would be one way to go. Perhaps even taking a file to the sides of the blade on your rifle. Go easy here though, you need to be able to see that blade in low light conditions too. Second, you may want to experiment with different patch materials and thicknesses, it’s a key component and often overlooked. T/C‘s often like a thicker patch and sometimes benefit from a wad behind the ball. See if you can locate any of the fired patches down range and read them for clues. Third, you may need to try different powders in addition to different charges. Along those lines, if the rifle has been shot a great deal it may need a new nipple in order to realize it’s best accuracy.

edit: I’m curious about your definition of accurate. 1 moa? 2? 3?

 

[SDSmlf]

Right day, sun just right so the sights are visible, wind is good, eyes are clear and working, I’ve gotten one inch groups out of a 58 caliber flintlock with open sights. Can I do it every day? No. Conditions just aren’t the same everyday. But when conditions are right it will happen, as gun is capable with the right load. Photograph below shows 10 shots as I was setting upon a ‘new’ set of open sight on a gun that was a known performer with peep sights. I knew the adjustment increment of the new sights so walking POI to center of target was rather simple. Final 5 shots were made without sight adjustment. This is my go to want drop it right now gun. Probably going to jinks myself and the gun, but gun is something like 9-0 as far as one shot kills dropping animal within 25 yards on white tails out to about 90 yards. It’s ugly paternal twin, nearly an identical gun, but a percussion, shoots about the same. It is 3-0. If I were to use the first shot out of a clean barrel on half a dozen trips to the range, group size is well under 3 inches.

As far as your 45 Seneca, it is not a long range ‘magnum’ muzzleloader. I have a 45 caliber Cherokee and love it as a ‘carrying’ gun. I find it deadly at 50 yards or so, with its zero at 75 yards, my personal maximum maximum range with it. Powder charge max for me is 70 grains of 3F. In my gun. Have seen too many broken Cherokee and Seneca stocks over the years, and they have not made any in quite some time. If it were me, I would find zero with a 70 grain or so max powder charge and a max midrange of 2 to 3 inches and call it a day. For example, if your load is dead on and accurate at 60 yards, and no more than 2-3” high at 30 yards, you have a 60 yard load with a few extra yards of killing range for insurance. If you want something to reach out a bit more, time to step up to a 15/16” or 1” barrel in my opinion. Almost sinful to take a 6 pound Seneca or Cherokee with it’s 13/16” barrel and try to make a 100 yard big game gun out of it in my opinion.

 

[arcticap]

#2 The TC handbook says that I should only use FFg from .50 to .90 grains maximum. When I was working up a load and shot .60 grains the accuracy fell way off so I didn't increase the powder charge anymore figuring it would be the same with 70,80 and 90 grains. Am I correct on this?

With all due respect, IMO you have misinterpreted what the TC Sidelock Manual says.
The manual only lists velocity data for round ball loads up to 90 grains with FFg, and various bullet weights up to 80 grains of FFg. But nowhere does it state that one can only load the .45 Seneca using FFg.
Folks should know to load approximately 10% less powder if loading with FFFg to equal the same powder charge weight as FFg because FFFg is generally denser.
Accuracy can be based on the muzzle velocity, pressure curve and RPM's of the projectile.
More velocity can usually affect downrange trajectory and accuracy.
Many guns have more than one accuracy sweet spot.
There's an accurate target load and an accurate hunting load.
There's absolutely no reason to limit yourself with 50-55 grains of powder for deer hunting.
I don't know how large the deer are in your area, but 50-55 grains of powder is producing ~25% less than the maximum allowable powder charge for the Seneca.
By the time the ball travels past 50 yards you're probably losing more velocity than needed to maintain accuracy.
The deer would need to be pretty small to hunt with that small of a powder charge beyond maybe 40 yards.
It's not even producing 800 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle, never mind 50 yards down range.
And 800 foot pounds is the recommended muzzle energy for killing deer at the maximum range that you're shooting at.
That may only be a rule of thumb, but unless the deer are very small deer, I think that you should increase your powder charge.
A hunter needs a certain margin of error when making an imperfect shot, and to be able to pass through hide and bone, and to try not to let a deer run far enough away in a wounded state to still be able to track it down.
If you have any doubt about using FFFg, then think about the fact that the chart doesn't specify the brand of FFg powder, and the fact that if you were loading with Swiss FFg, it would be 5% -10% denser and faster than Goex FFg, which the chart doesn't distinguish between them.
Not all powders are the same and neither is their velocity and accuracy.
At least try 70 - 85 grains of powder to see if you can hit a pie plate consistently with the first shot from a cold clean barrel each and every time at 65-70 yards and then beyond.
Put some dayglo orange paint on the front sight if needed to be able to see it better.
You want to try to achieve a pass through shot on the deer if possible.

For other folks, here's the TC sidelock manual that lists various .45 Seneca loads on pages 73 & 74. --->>> Shooting TC Side Lock Black Powder Guns | Firearms | Cartridge (Firearms)

 

[azmntman]

50 grains at 100 yds in the boiler room will drop yer deer. 90 grains in the guts will not. SHOT PLACEMENT. It is my opinion, having shot a .45 TC, that 100 yds is a very doable shot with your rifle. You gotta trust it (maybe you SHOULD change sights.). I would take the shot in most situations. I wont shoot an animal thats not standing still broadside at anything over about 60-75 yds. I have taken a few "trotting" at 40 yds +/-. Know yer gun, shot placement.....good to go

 

[zimmerstutzen]

accuracy is a fickle ghost as elusive as the size of a fish described by a one armed fisherman. Most folks do not know what accuracy is with a muzzle loader. The consistency with loads, powder, hold, breathng trigger squeeze, etc must be down to the finest detail. Just the crappy sights on most production guns defeat fine accuracy. Assuming good eye, crown, fine sights, and consistent loading, some barrels are only capable of 4 or 5 inch groups at 100 yds. most are good for three inch groups at 100 and a few are good for ragged one holes. So many like to claim they have tack drivers, but could not actually drive a tack to save their lives. I have had a few of those days when the celestial bodies aligned with the stars and the Gods all smiled to create a five shot one ragged hole at 100 yds. it isn't easy, takes lots of practice and normally was closer to a 1.5 inch to 2 inch group. As eyes age, the shooter switches games to aperture sights and keeps trying. Then there are games with how to describe the groups. Some only shoot three shots, some measure from the center of the hole to center of the farthest hole, I mean cover the entire group with a small circle. My first muzzle loader rifle was a TC flintlock Hawken. Between the crappy sights that were constantly loose and the huge ball on the front sight, it was impossible to sight at 100 yds for accuracy. That round ball on the front sight covered the entire bulls eye at 100 yds.. Add to that the frustration of a crappy TC flintlock that was unreliable, and accuracy was nearly impossible. I could shoot better groups at 100 yds with my North Star trade gun smooth bore.

Sometimes all it takes to shrink groups is a little more attention to the details of loading. Some people are terrible at measuring powder consistently.

 

[1853enfield]

I have been shooting for at least 60 years and have been range master at our range many times.. When i invite someone who always shoots one inch groups to the range hang a paper target and they shoot a 3 inch group, they always blame the scope.. or the ammo,, or something else. very few people can shoot 1 inch groups all the time, ok after a few drinks i can sit at the computer and shoot half inch groups all day long. it is different as paper targets flat dont lie. pop cans rocks pine cones etc are not one inch. i have a really accurate CPA arms schutzen rifle breach seating weighed bullets and powder and still shoot many groups over an inch. I am not saying anyone is telling an untruth just that sometimes we dont all use the same ruler. That said i have fun every time i make it to the range. Last Thursday 4 of us met at the range to shoot muzzleloaders at a varmint target offhand at 25 yards. i hit it the first time with my 40 caliber flint lock 4 out of the first 5 and went down hill after that. Years ago and a couple heart attacks ago and cancer a few years ago i could have more stamina but got tired and just couldn't hold the rifle up. i cheated from there on out and used a rest.

 

[Mknight702]

1o'clock is is a group of 3 shot at 100m with my Ardesa Hawken .451. I doubt I could repeat it though. The other holes are some .22 I managed to scatter about.

 

[irishjim]

I have carried and shot a 45 caliber TC Seneca since I believe the 1970's. The original TC "maxi ball a three ring was 245 grain hunting bullet that literally dropped into the Seneca barrel supposedly stabilized with the grease you were supposed to apply. They had a bad habit of developing wobble and or tumbling at about 75 yards. This I believe gave the Seneca a bad rap as a short range gun. In the early years I paper wrapped the Maxi with brown waxed paper after greasing with extra heavy duty automotive grease. The fit was much improved and I set my 2x7 scope to a 0 drop of about 100 yards with 10 grains of FFF topped with 80 grains of FF. All well and good for the first shot but follow ups were very slow. Over the years I have experimented with nearly every new 45 caliber offering including Hornady 45 cal pistol rounds and the various muzzleloader variations. Over time I have settled on the following the Barnes 195 Grain 45 caliber expander Sabot backed with a 10 grain drizzle of Goex FFF topped with one Triple Seven 45 grain pellet and one Triple Seven 44 cal 30 grain pellet. My zero point is out to 150 yards and drops about 7 inches at 200 yards. It will shoot 5-7' groups at 150 yards. The twist of the barrel and the small load limits knock down power to about 900-1000 FP at 150 yards. I also have a 45 caliber Knight inline that will take a 200 grain load it isn't any more accurate that the old Seneca but the knock down power is definitely in the 1500-1800FP range.

 

[LME]

I am with Dale on this one if you can hit a 9in. pie plate at 100 yards your good to go, but I may also add that I personally will not shoot at a deer that far with a muzzle loader all my shots are about 60 yards or less and I have killled a bunch of them. Also I use the bigger bores, cal. 50-62 The longest shot I ever took was about 90 steps with a 54 cal. cap lock mountain rifle, (he is a dandy buck) the buck now graces my wall, the load was a .530 round ball,15 thousands cotton patch,80 grns 3 f goex, and my home brewed lube of bees wax olive oil and a dab of Crisco. keep the 100 yard shots and the tack driving for range work, use your woods skills and shot placement for the deer we owe it to them.

I have found the same load you use in your .54 is identical to mine with exception to your lube?This load has been the one in all the .54 of mine and my friends that shot best! What you said about the distance you like to shoot deer is also what I prefer as well? It never ceases to amaze me anymore that when you shoot your rifle trying different loads,patches and ball sizes and the dust settles you find what works best. The forums has great iformation but can cause you to get a head ache?Nothing beats hands on!

 

[toot]

just look at MUZZLELOADER MANIC, on his site he drives tack's with a flintier.

 

[arcticap]

#3 Having shot center fire rifles all my life with fine iron sights, how the heck do some shoot 100 yards with tack driver accuracy with the somewhat "chunky" open factory sights that I have seen on most Muzzleloaders including mine?

Get to know your sights and limitations.
Doesn't the Seneca have Partridge sights, i.e. - a square front post with a rectangular rear notch?

The front post may be a little wide, but is based on keeping it equidistant from the sides of the square notch.
This type of sight is generally used with a 6 o'clock hold while keeping the target "point of aim" centered on top of the post.

If you're having trouble, try to concentrate your focus on the front sight while holding your breath as the trigger is gently squeezed.
Hunting sights are often intended for faster target acquisition since most shots are within 65 yards or so.

Also, there is a flexible plastic eye disc named EyePal that will stick on to an eyeglass lens that can sharpen up open sights.
Webste: EyePal | Get back on the Range with EyePal

 

[deermanok]

I recently bought a new old stock Traditions deerhunter rifle in 45 caliber. Very basic brass blade front sight and V notch rear.
I started out with 50 grains of 3f Old Ensyford, under a .440 ball with a .010" thick Oxyoke cotton patch. After a few shots, I stepped up the powder charge to 70 grains. A few shots later, I backed it down to 60 grains and felt that the rifle seemed to like that load best. Even though the sights are pretty simple, it does take a bit of concentration to line up the rear, front and target all in the right order.

 

[Kansas Jake]

I don't care how good the gun is, there is no way I could drive tacks at 100 anymore unless it was a one shot lucky hit. Even when I was young with good eyes(corrected with glasses) I couldn't do it. A five shot group all touching with any firearm I own would be amazing for me. Shoot it might be amazing for any other shooter with them too. Are some capable? Probably with the right workup and an expert marksman.

 

[Intosomthin]

Pulled this off at 50...n im blind as a bat, gods were with me... nwtr smoothy... 615 ball...

 

[Intosomthin]

At 100, i couldnt see it lol

 

[Dale Lilly]

I am with Dale on this one if you can hit a 9in. pie plate at 100 yards your good to go, but I may also add that I personally will not shoot at a deer that far with a muzzle loader all my shots are about 60 yards or less and I have killled a bunch of them. Also I use the bigger bores, cal. 50-62 The longest shot I ever took was about 90 steps with a 54 cal. cap lock mountain rifle, (he is a dandy buck) the buck now graces my wall, the load was a .530 round ball,15 thousands cotton patch,80 grns 3 f goex, and my home brewed lube of bees wax olive oil and a dab of Crisco. keep the 100 yard shots and the tack driving for range work, use your woods skills and shot placement for the deer we owe it to them.

I also restrict my deer shooting to around 50/60 yards. I can't abide the thought of leaving such a magnificent animal to a lingering, painful death, Polecat