Can everyone help to indentify this gun ?

[enfield]

For over 40 years now , I'm a collector/shooter of vintage target pistols and litterally hundreds of them , I was able to handle/possess , restaure /shoot/trade to fellow shoters , but recently , I've got that one chance in my collecting live ,having been able to purchase something , what I never saw or knew of before .
Unfortunately , the seller knew exactly of its rarity , but fortunately/unfortunately , the hammer was broken and had to be replaced and he also knew from diff. gunmakers , that it would be costly to have it rebuilt , therefore it came into my league and I was fortunate to buy it , but still in the four digit numbers .
Well - never before , I've seen such a thought through and complicated system as in this entire pistol , therefore I spend all my savings and cancelled my vacations to buy it , since I'm pretty sure , there will be no second chance for finding one similar . ( And YES , it was pretty expensive , but what are You doing , when You fall in love ? )
The pistol is , as I'm convinced , of pretty late German origin , the deeply rifled ( 0.6mm ) barrel in close to perfect condition bears the German inscription " Guss Stahl Rohr " which means cast steel barrel , inlaid in silver . I took my time and lots of elbow grease to make a new hammer , and after the third attempt , it now seems to be right .

What takes it apart of all known guns is , that is has got somewhat like an " inline system " .

Has anyone of You ever seen a system litke this and can tell me , who has made/developed it ?

As You can see , it's also a fine shooter with patched round ball ( .464 , the same ball which I use in my Adams Beaomont revolver ) and 16,5 gr BP .

Is there anyone who knows more , who has invented this system , are there more known spezies of the same system ?

Any information will be welcome !

 

[hawkeye2]

Thank you for sharing that with us and thank you for restoring it to shooting condition. That mechanism is ingenious and a work of art. Thanks too that they are so rare I'll never have to make a decision regarding funding. Oh, good shooting too.

Was there enough of the old hammer left to copy?

 

[ppg1949]

Most unique. Thank you for sharing the explanation and pictures.

 

[enfield]

Thank you for sharing that with us and thank you for restoring it to shooting condition. That mechanism is ingenious and a work of art. Thanks too that they are so rare I'll never have to make a decision regarding funding. Oh, good shooting too.

Was there enough of the old hammer left to copy?

Fortunately , the base of the hammer was still present . With lots of thoughts/drawings/trials , I was lucky to reshape it as I think , it should be , and most of all , it works .

But still , I don't know , who could have invented/built this entire pisto/system l

Really astonishing , but after a closer look at the principle : the bare trigger pull is even smoother than using the set trigger

 

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

Hmm...saw a similar gun in another forum and the conclusion was a Flobert-style parlor pistol, some of which were made in Belgium:
Lot Detail - (A) FLOBERT STYLE PERCUSSION TARGET PISTOL.

Louis-Nicolas Flobert - Wikipedia

Doesn't help identify the actual maker in this case, though.

 

[enfield]

Hmm...saw a similar gun in another forum and the conclusion was a Flobert-style parlor pistol, some of which were made in Belgium:
Lot Detail - (A) FLOBERT STYLE PERCUSSION TARGET PISTOL.

Louis-Nicolas Flobert - Wikipedia

Doesn't help identify the actual maker in this case, though.

This was also my first idea , but the Flobert parlor pistols were made later and are breech loaders . Some of them were converted in Germany from the 70' on by threading in a nipple and grinding the face of the hammer flat , due to the very restrictive German gun control , which only allows single shot muzzle loaders , if You don't have a hard to get collectos's license .
Floberts also are mostly in 6mm BB or much less in 9mm Flobert .
This entire pistol was never intended for breech loading , since the barrel has a hooked breech plug / detachable barrel in .464

The search goes on !

 

[Eterry]

The trigger guard certainly looks Flobert-ish, but i've never seen a firing system like this. Very interesting. Good job getting it back to shooting.

 

[enfield]

The trigger guard certainly looks Flobert-ish, but i've never seen a firing system like this. Very interesting. Good job getting it back to shooting.

Most European target pistols had similar trigger guards then , I have and handled dozens of them ...

BUT : Your motto really impresses me !

 

[Dale Lilly]

For over 40 years now , I'm a collector/shooter of vintage target pistols and litterally hundreds of them , I was able to handle/possess , restaure /shoot/trade to fellow shoters , but recently , I've got that one chance in my collecting live ,having been able to purchase something , what I never saw or knew of before .
Unfortunately , the seller knew exactly of its rarity , but fortunately/unfortunately , the hammer was broken and had to be replaced and he also knew from diff. gunmakers , that it would be costly to have it rebuilt , therefore it came into my league and I was fortunate to buy it , but still in the four digit numbers .
Well - never before , I've seen such a thought through and complicated system as in this entire pistol , therefore I spend all my savings and cancelled my vacations to buy it , since I'm pretty sure , there will be no second chance for finding one similar . ( And YES , it was pretty expensive , but what are You doing , when You fall in love ? )
The pistol is , as I'm convinced , of pretty late German origin , the deeply rifled ( 0.6mm ) barrel in close to perfect condition bears the German inscription " Guss Stahl Rohr " which means cast steel barrel , inlaid in silver . I took my time and lots of elbow grease to make a new hammer , and after the third attempt , it now seems to be right .

View attachment 32010View attachment 32011View attachment 32012View attachment 32013View attachment 32014View attachment 32015View attachment 32016View attachment 32017
What takes it apart of all known guns is , that is has got somewhat like an " inline system " .

Has anyone of You ever seen a system litke this and can tell me , who has made/developed it ?

As You can see , it's also a fine shooter with patched round ball ( .464 , the same ball which I use in my Adams Beaomont revolver ) and 16,5 gr BP .

Is there anyone who knows more , who has invented this system , are there more known spezies of the same system ?

Any information will be welcome !

Unique, marvelous job, thanks for a visual history lesson.

 

[OLUT]

Enfield, per your question on whether anyone has seen a similar firearm, etc ..... In his book "Early Percussion Firearms", Lewis Winant briefly describes early IN-LINE guns which at the time were called Center-Fire guns. He illustrates an English double barrel gun by Charles Jones of Birmingham, which is more complex than your gun, as it has outside cocking hammers as well as internal strikers that impact on the nipples in line with the axis of the bore. But it is the earliest in-line firing design that I have found. Jone's patent is #6436 and was issued in 1833 (with some claims removed in 1835)

.
You should be able to GOOGLE the patent. Definitely NOT your gun, but maybe the inspiration for some later german gunmaker.

 

[toot]

he Shure made a ton of them in 22 CAL. used to find them in gun stores and still at flea markets still. a very nice weapon but does not bring much $.

 

[jimhallam]

Hi
I agree with "Enfield" --- the FLOBERT uses the "weight" of the heavily-sprung hammer to hold the breech closed as the small rimfire cartridge (oops! sorry!) fires. These cartridges normally have no powder, relying upon the relatively large amount of priming compound to propel the projectile. Calibres are normally 6mm but there were others, up to 9mm and as small as 4mm (for the "Zimmerpatronen" - or "Parlour cartridge"). Obviously with such a low power the barrel could not be long -- so for ZimmerSTUTZEN (Parlour RIFLES) the 6" or (thereabouts) barrel was either at the breech with the rest of the tube being overbored, or at the muzzle, with a bell-crank lever system operating a looooooooooong firing pin. There were PERCUSSION precursors -- I used to have a fairly large collection (some of which are on offer at the next Amoskeag Auction this month). Again "Enfield" is correct about modifications: in the U.K. many of the vest pocket pistols in 6mmRF were modified by screwing a nipple into the breech, claiming that they then were not licenceable.

I have just acquired as part of a deceased estate some interesting bullets with percussion inserts -- bullets corroded with lead carbonate / lead oxide , dimensions in THOUSANDTHS of an inch (but I am sure that they should be in mm), based on the average of a number of them:-
BULLET -- DIAMETER about .400, HEIGHT about .500 CAP CHAMBER width = just under .3:
CAP -- about .280 with a lip, depth c. .175 the cap composition is covered by a chalky substance. I tested a few holding them in surgical forceps, heated with a match and the caps blew out of the forceps and hit the gunroom roof!






Clearly they must have been fired by a striker entering the cap, so the pistol must have had a short breech and a flat striker .. like the "Montigny-Fusnot" illustrated --- so it was a CAPPING BREECHLOADING PERCUSSION firearm. Perhaps YOUR pistol might have been one of those, with a nipple added?

 

[enfield]

I don't think so , when you take another look , You will find , that te nipple is installed with a slight upward ankle , also the size of the breech plug hook is too narrow and is also a patent breech plug that couldn't have been converted

 

[enfield]

Enfield, per your question on whether anyone has seen a similar firearm, etc ..... In his book "Early Percussion Firearms", Lewis Winant briefly describes early IN-LINE guns which at the time were called Center-Fire guns. He illustrates an English double barrel gun by Charles Jones of Birmingham, which is more complex than your gun, as it has outside cocking hammers as well as internal strikers that impact on the nipples in line with the axis of the bore. But it is the earliest in-line firing design that I have found. Jone's patent is #6436 and was issued in 1833 (with some claims removed in 1835)View attachment 32430 .
You should be able to GOOGLE the patent. Definitely NOT your gun, but maybe the inspiration for some later german gunmaker.

Thank You very much for Your input and most of all , the attached drawing of the system , which really shows some similarity with my pistol !
For a pure target pistol , if wouldn't make much sense for having a side cocking hammer that would destroy the clear line of sight , and it also would have been much easier to add a common side lock . I think , the most advantage of an inline system is exactly the clear sighting over the barrel with nothing disturbing the aim .
I think , with this Jone's patent , we're on the correct trace .

Thank You very much !

 

[enfield]

he Shure made a ton of them in 22 CAL. used to find them in gun stores and still at flea markets still. a very nice weapon but does not bring much $.

be sure , as a collector/shooter , I never made , make or will make any fakes !
I'm also not interested in making much money , but rather to preserve beautiful antique works of art

 

[Zonie]

Gentlemen: I must ask you all to stop talking about Floberts or any other gun that uses a self contained cartridge or bullet. This is a muzzleloading forum and talk of firearms that use self contained cartridges or bullets that do not require a separate cap to fire them is against the forum rules.

 

[jimhallam]

I understand that you have RULES about "selfcontained cartridges" but I cannot understand why they ban the transitional period firearms, which would be of great interest to many muzzle-loading arms collectors as well. All that you would risk is having more members. With the greatest respect, why not allow ONE Forum for these?

What are the Rules on convertible arms? I have some revolvers built as Breechloaders, but with a retro-convertible percussion cylinder (useful when one runs out of "fixed ammunition" in the Khyber Pass); others were convertED from ML to BL -- are these not valid as related items from the period?
I have one revolver from the "Breechloading Arms Company" which is CLEARLY percussion --- but in that period it was considered to be a "Breechloader" because the projectile was NOT inserted at the muzzle (of the barrel).
The single-shot pistol described as a "converted Zimmer" is CLEARLY a "Flobert type" with a nipple screwed into the breech. That means that it IS "percussion" and can be used as such.
The South German Zimmerpistole (DSCF1240) was obviously at one time a M-L, now it has a breech insert for the "4mm Zimmerpatrone mit kugeln" but it could easily have had a regular percussion nipple.
The "Harding conversion" is a split-cylinder updating of a percussion revolver -- I also have a cased one in .442RF, complete with the original (and unused!) percussion cylinder.

That's just the tip of the iceberg .... ... surely allowing discussion fo these would not be detrimental to the interests of many members.

As long as the site admits RELATED ARTEFACTS from the period (I accept that modern #209 primer firearms are beyond the pale) all that we are doing is deepening people's knowledge of what happenned at that time --- and there is a dearth of literature on the subject.

 

[enfield]

Gentlemen: I must ask you all to stop talking about Floberts or any other gun that uses a self contained cartridge or bullet. This is a muzzleloading forum and talk of firearms that use self contained cartridges or bullets that do not require a separate cap to fire them is against the forum rules.

Hi , Zonie , Your'e absolutely right , but in this thread one or the other might be thinking of a reconverted pistol here and therefore proposed it to formerly have been a breechloader , in the first instance remembering the invention of a French gunmaker .
I'd also were glad , if the discussion went back to the item itself ( which is clearly a muzzle loader )
Olut gave me a very important input which , as I think , wouldn't have shown up , if there had not been some ideas of the mentioned breechloaders .
So please forgive us for having drifted off ( real collectors often also are really awful ...)

The idea of jimhallam sounds also very interesting to me , since this is a niche , which is seldom if not never covered . But I agree , that this would be another blog , even if it would be also mighty interesting , since such hermaphrodites are not yet breechloaders but also no longer muzzle loaders .

Again , sorry for having let the thread drifting off .

 

[Zonie]

For those who haven't read the forum rules, here they are. I added some color to a few of them to address issues mentioned in this thread.

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[enfield]

Thank You . Now I not only have read but hopefully understood the rules .