Can i have your thoughts on this ?

[Mathias]

Hi
I have been captiveted by our army rifles (swedish) and specially the M-1860 and now have i got a picature on original bullets curtusy to the Swedish army museum unfortunantly they didn't know the weight.But here are the measures they gave me and the picature. I would realy like to know what you think about a bullet like this, you think it would be worth having a custom mould made ?
Length 29,4mm or 1.158 inch
Width over the driving bands 12mm or .473 inch (i would have to meassure my barell before deciding on cal)
Width between driving bands 11mm or .433 inch.
And it was pusched forward by 98.45 gr of bp

Best regards
Mathias

 

[musketman]

What does the base of the bullet look like?

Hard to tell but it looks like it might be a "square" hollow base on the lower right bullet.

 

[rabjr]

Because of their nose shape, they are more suited to killing men which was their intended target, then game. I personally would not use them on any type of game.

 

[Mathias]

Yes it is a flat based bullet whit no cavity.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I personally think the driving bands are too thin, in width, and they won't stand up to the kind of pressures that would be pushing the bullet. I would NOT bother having a custom bullet mold made for it for that reason. If you want the bullets to shoot in competition, or to have modern replicas to show to people, that is another set of considerations.

IMO, those bullets look like reduced size projectiles that were made originally for the first rifled cannons- the Parrot Guns of the mid- 1800s. They also had relatively narrow bands, but the pressure on the cannon shells was less than you would have in a .48 caliber rifle.

You would probably have to use a base wad, or " OP WAD" of some thickness to hold back the gas and pressure behind this bullet, to get it to shoot accurate. And, unfortunately, you probably would need some kind of false muzzle to get these bullets loaded down a MLers uniformly centered to get any kind of group accuracy at all. A wider base band would allow you to center the bullet with only a coned muzzle on your gun.

I also don't like the nose shape of the bullet- fine for military use, but not for game. It is more likely to veer off course when it hits flesh than a more rounded nose bullet or flat nose bullet does.

First determine the caliber of your rifle, and whether the barrel is in good enough condition to be shot. Those old iron and steel barrels can't always be trusted after all this time. Then, you can begin to worry about choosing a projectile. In such an old barrel, I would be inclined to use only a PRB- never a conical, because of the large increase in chamber pressures.

 

[Mathias]

I have had a gunsmith that knows his way around old guns and he says it's ok to use. I agree that those driving bands looks wery thin. But what is strange is that this rifle was known for it's accurcy, it was used in matches long after the army switched to cartridge loaded guns as a side note i can mension that many barrels from the M-1860 was used in Remington roling block actions shoting the 12.7x44 similar to your 50-70 i think.
Side note aside you think i would be better of going for a mine style bullet in say 300-350 gr area ?
Regards
Mathias

 

[paulvallandigham]

The only way I see that such a bullet could be loaded centered in the bore in that configuration would be if its paper patched. The paper then would fill the shallow grooves of the rifle, and center the lead bullet. The paper would take the pressure of the metal pressing against the bore equally, keeping the bullet centered as it exited the barrel. Only if it remains centered would such a bullet produce accurate( ie. small) groups.

 

[Mathias]

That is a thought it could have been paper patched becuse i remember reading that the rifle was consider unworthy for fied use becuse it become dirty and hard to load too fast like after one shoot, so it was mostly used by snipers
Mathias

 

[Many Klatch]

Mathias, I think you have answered your own question. The bullets you show were probably meant to be used with paper patching and cleaning between shots. I would imagine that a special short starter that centered the nose was also used.

Looks like you need three molds, one to match the original and a Minie ball mold and a round ball mold.

Looks like fun.

Many Klatch

 

[longcruise]

I have been captiveted by our army rifles (swedish) and specially the M-1860 and now have i got a picature on original bullets curtusy to the Swedish army museum unfortunantly they didn't know the weight.But here are the measures they gave me and the picature. I would realy like to know what you think about a bullet like this, you think it would be worth having a custom mould made ?

As you said, you have been captivated. If it were me, I would pursue the historical bullet design. Much could be learned by finding your own way.

Go to the Lee Precision website and poke around their custom mold section. They have a formula there for figuring the weight of bullets of various designs. Probably won't match the pointed bullet you show but it could come close!

One key to the correct historical usage (at least in my measly opinion) would be to determine in advance how they loaded the bullet, was it paper patched, what was the relationship between the size of the driving bands and the bore and groove measurements, etc. Measuring your own bore could tell a lot!

 

[Mathias]

I must admit that it would be fun to be able to shoot an original style bullet.
My boore measures .479 over the lands and .492 in the groves hope i got the names right but i think you will understand what i am meaning.
It also has a what i think is calle a patent breech (the powder area is smaller then the barell) made to hold some 98gr bp and as i have understood it that may be too much powder for a .457 ball (that is the size i have been trying so far) and i don't like the idea of having a empty space under the ball
Mathias

 

[paulvallandigham]

Math: You will want a ball that is no more than about .10" smaller than your BORE diameter, and a cloth patch at least as thick as the grooves are deep compared to your lands(BORE). Since your groove diameter measures .492" and the lands measure .479", the grooves are a difference of .013". That means the groove depth is half that difference, or .0065". You don't want to fire that caliber of ball, or slug, for that matter, with a thin patch that is .010" thick. So, IN THIS CASE, look for a ball that is .015-.020" smaller than the bore diameter, or between .459, and .464" in diameter. Then use a .020" thick patch to fill the grooves and center the ball in that barrel.

I suggest you contact Jeff Tanner, who lives and works in England to make you a mold of the right diameter ball for this gun. He makes molds of all sizes, and his price, and service is reasonable, and prompt. I believe there is a Link to Jeff's website here on the Index page- go up to Member Resources, scroll down to "articles, charts, and links," and click on "links". Look for mold makers.

Jeff can also make you a mold for a bullet. You will need to give him dimensions of the gun, and some idea of what weight you want the bullet to be, and what you want it to look like. The pictures you posted here are a start.

For a bullet mold, You will want the diameter to be .001 to .002" SMALLER than the bore diameter( .379). You will have to lube the grooves in the bullet for lube, and then run the bullet down on the powder charge. You will need to know the Rate of Twist( ROT) of the rifling( How many inches does it require to make a full circle, or " twist")before deciding on a bullet length, and the bullet length will probably control the bullet weight. Start by weighing those original bullets you have on a grain scale. Then measure its length with a caliper to the thousandth of an inch. With the bore diameter( .479") and the length of the bullet, and the ROT, Jeff should be able to make you both a RB mold, and a bullet mold that will produce a bullet that shoots well in your rifle.

Starting charges should be on the low side, out of respect for the age of the gun. Assuming the rifle is examined and found fit to be fired, start using FFg powder( lower pressures) for both the conical and the rb. I recommend starting at 45 grains and working up from there in 5 grain increments with the RB. With the conical Start with 40 grains and work up from there. If you are only going to punch holes in paper, there is no need for a HOT load for the bullet. You want accuracy.

Have fun.

 

[Mathias]

I have had a look at Tanner's homepage and that looks wery promising.

Unfortunantly those bullets on the picature are not mine but belongs to a museum.

Talked to a man who used to have a similar rifle and he said that the bullets weighed betven 400 and 420 gr.

I have measured the tvist of my rifling and it came out as 1/37.8 give and take a little.

I took a jag and some patches to get a thight fit, then pusched it alltheway downe the barell put a peace of tape as marker in line whit the front sight then gently pulled it uppwards till i got a quarter of a revolution then i took the resulting length times 4, i did this sevrel times before i settled on a average. Was i thinkig right or have i missed something ?
Mathias

 

[longcruise]

Here are two bullets that might get you started. These are on the Lee Precision site under available bullet molds. These are meant to be used in the .475 Linebaugh and the .480 Ruger hand guns.

The smaller one is made for a gas check and may not be the best choice.

 

[crockett]

I would spend more time researching the original use- if they did have a patch or not? what was the powder charge? The 1/38 twist isn't as fast as a modern inline shooting a sabot but a sabot is longer and needs a faster twist. On any conical with driving bands close together, as you ram the conical down the bore the bullet can twist out of line, or develop what they termed runout with modern cartridges. Did the original ramrod have a tip that kept the conical straight in the bore.
AND- the most important point. Why go to all the trouble of having a mold made of the original and then change things with paper patches, etc. I would try to duplicate everything to original specs.
Can the museum make several impressions of their bullets into wax, etc so you get an exact duplicate?
Good luck.

 

[paulvallandigham]

YOu did fine on measuring the ROT, Math. I like the idea of asking the museum to make a wax impression of all sides of those bullets, so you can send those to a mold maker. I would also recommend trying those existing conicals for the .475 Linbaugh,and the .480 Ruger pistol cartridges. They should be short enough to work with that ROT. The RB mold should be inexpensive enough to get you actually shooting the gun, so that you can find out how much more money you want to sink into it. There are companies over here that make lubrisizer machines, that both size the bullet, and then press grease into the grooves. They can make special sizing dies for you that won't break your bank account, so you can size those bullets to the needed size, and lubricate them for you.

I do agree that before going to that expense, you should find out of these were paper patched, how were they centered in the bore when loaded, etc. Try to duplicate the actual bullet and loading technique for the gun.