Can you shoot pyrodex in a flintlock?

[MSW]

ayup, what Herb said... this system will work, but i think it's succumbing to compromise, and it's a pain in the neck unless there's a compelling reason to use it. since (if you're using this method) you already have the real stuff, why not just use the real stuff?

just one guy's opinion

 

[Oldnamvet]

The issue probably is that it is a lot easier to stop at the local gun store and pick up a pound of high priced stuff on the spur of the moment. Since BP takes a while to get if you order, they tend to hoard the stuff, using as little as possible. Doesn't make a lot of sense when a little planning gets you better stuff at lower cost --- but that is just the way it is sometimes. Some also say that the cleaning is a lot easier with triple7.

 

[paulvallandigham]

The cleaning is not only NOT easier, but more involved. Triple 7 requires both soap and water, and then modern gun solvents to remove the residue in the barrel, flash channel and nipple. It costs more twice as much as Black Powder, degrades from being exposed to oxygen, so that it begins to lose its power within a few months, where black powder remains the same for centuries if properly stored.

If you can't buy black powder locally, Then plan ahead, contact Graf & Sons, or Powder Inc. to find out their minimum shipping order policies, and then order powder. It is delivered to your door within a couple of days. No, you can't order it the night before opening day of Deer season, and expect to have it on time. But, with only a little forethought- I know that is a big word to some shooters- you can have your powder in plenty of time for this year's seasons.

Powder orders should have been made last June, so you had all summer to shoot, work up loads, get used to the gun, and fix anything about the gun that is not working right, rather than wait until late September to decide you are going to take the smokepole out and hunt with it, if you can find some powder! If you can't get to a range and check on the load, loading procedures, and cleaning procedures, use something else this season, and plan to use your gun next year instead.

 

[Herb]

Slippyfoote didn't ask about relative expense. He asked if it would work. I told him how to make it work. There are always people wanting to know this. I test this stuff just because most of you say it won't work, but you really haven't tried it enough to find out how to use it. My last 25 pounds of Goex 3F I bought bulk at the National Rendezvous in Wyoming in July for $9 per pound, in hand. Read it and weep.

 

Slippyfoote didn't ask about relative expense. He asked if it would work. I told him how to make it work. There are always people wanting to know this. I test this stuff just because most of you say it won't work, but you really haven't tried it enough to find out how to use it.

I think the point most people are making is, why bother going through the trouble to carry both powders when BP works just fine? If you're already carrying BP, why use Pyrodex? Is it just to "make it work"? :shake: It sounds like using both is the worst of both worlds.

The point is - it doesn't work well, and that's why you have to add BP to it to get it to work. Just the fact that you have to add BP to Pyrodex to get it to work would tell most people something.

 

[Zonie]

I believe what it boils down to is not everyone has access to real black powder and they don't want to order large amounts.

When they get a pound or two they want to make it last as long as possible so if they want to do much shooting, Pyrodex comes to mind.

Access to Pyrodex is easy at almost all gun stores so if they ration their real black powder and use the Pyrodex for their main charges it works for them.

Speaking for myself, I have access to black powder if I want to drive 50 miles round trip but that isn't possible for many of our members.

 

[Mike 56]

I don't own a flint lock yet but i read a British black powder forum most of guys that shoot flintlocks use Pyrodex or triple7 for the main charge and real black for the pan. They say it work fine. Maybe they are pouring a few grains of real black ahead of there main charge.

Mike

 

[paulvallandigham]

Mike. You have to put a " Black Powder starter charge " down the barrel first, to ignite the substitute powders. Even pyrodex requires the starter.

That is why those pellets have a layer of black powder on one side, too. I have never figured out how Hodgdon got those pellets past the ATFE regulations, since that black powder layer is clearly black powder, and should be subject to the same strict storage and handling and sales requirements that Black Powder faces today.

 

[rudy parnell]

They's a reason they call me Slippy!

Here's an angle that hasn't been mentioned and will be a sore subject for some.....so I won't give a whole lot of details.......also, I don't want to risk having the event cancelled.

I am putting together a presentation for a Youth Organization...........

I want to discuss some general information on the American Long Rifle, 18th Century America [focusing on the Scots-Irish, Religion, and the Revolution],plus some local history. This to include hands-on with the flintlock and demonstration.

Blackpowder is a sticking point and could be a deal breaker. I just want to be sure and cover all the bases....and of course learn from everyone here.

It's the world we live in... :shake: :hmm:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Well, we have several active members who live in N. Carolina, or surrounding states. If you can't find black powder, contact some of them. They either have it, or can tell you a local source for the powder. If you Google Goex, or use the Link to that site here on the forum, you can get the 800 number for the distributor that serves N. Carolina. They will tell you where the nearest retailer is, or otherwise arrange to sell you the powder you need.

Just make sure that the students understand that "Black Powder " does not just refer to the color of the powder, but a specific formula. There are lots of smokeless powders that are black in color. They should NOT be used in a traditional Black Powder firearm. Flintlocks have to use Black Powder because of the nature of the ignition system. ( So do Matchlocks, and Wheellocks-- its nothing unique to flintlocks.) Open ignition systems were what were used in firearms for 500 years before someone figured out how to make a "closed ignition system". Percussion ignition, then pinfires, then rimfires, then centerfires were all designed in the 19th century, and firearms designers have not come up with a better system, yet. All those "modern ", closed system designes used Black Powder for their propellant. It is only in the last half of the 20th century that we see Substitute powders being made, and Sold to the unknowing as a " Better Propellant", with more claims than you had from Snake Oil salesmen before WWI. And, like the Snake Oil salesmen, most of the claims about the substitute powders are false.

 

[rudy parnell]

I know this is off the thread....but since you mentioned the specific formular.....I understand that the main ingredient is xxx.....if that is the case......can you substitute xxx in some composition to accomplish a propellant ? Not a scientist...just curious.

By the way, you make a great point about the definition and description of "Blackpowder". And the safety issues associated with open ignition. Thanks for the reminders.

This will be a 50 min. class that will simply introduce the flintlock as a unique part of American history.....and identify exactly what it looks like .....and touch on it's importance during the period.

Just attempting to plant a seed.

 

[paulvallandigham]

YOu'll have to consult a chemist with your question about substituting compounds. If XXX would work the same I am sure it would have been substituted years ago. So, without consulting a chemist, I have my own doubts that the substitution will work. The Chinese invented Black Powder more than 1000 years ago. We have had it in Western Culture for about 700 years. Sir Francis Bacon is often given credit for its invention, but I have my doubts, and there are other serious contenders. And, Marco Polo may have brought back the " secret " from his journey to China about that time. If someone could switch components to make a cheaper, or better black powder, I am sure it would have been done long before now.
I have taught Hunter Safety to people of all ages since 1982. Included is a section on Black Powder, and MLers. I take at least one MLer with me for the students to see and hold. Keep the presentation basic, because unless the students are able to actually fire the guns, remembering eveything you CAN tell them about safety concerns just is not going to happen.

Thanks for helping young people learn their history, and about guns. :thumbsup: :hatsoff:

 

[Zonie]

I think the curiosity will have to remain, at least on this forum. :hmm:

We have a rule that says, "Members may not discus the making of black powder..."

 

[dennis benedict]

If you can find 777, that will work. I shoot it in my flintlock. But now, you will have to shoot a duplex load to do this. First put about 5 grs of black powder down the barrel first then the 777 load. You will have to subtract 5 grs from your 777 load because of the 5 grs of black powder. This becomes second nature to you when you get used to this kind of loading. Dennis.

 

[dennis benedict]

Also I forgot to mention that you will have to use 4f black powder for the flash pan. You use 4f in the duplex load as well. My rifle and my son's rifle shoot tighter groups with 777. Dennis.