Cannon powder question

[Codger Craig Wilcox]

1960-62, our Reenactment group used original Civil War powder in our 3" cannon, never had a problem. And our original 1863 .577 cal Springfields used FFG from 5 lb cans also from the same period. We did use fresh-cast and lubed minie' balls.

 

[pamtnman]

1960-62, our Reenactment group used original Civil War powder in our 3" cannon, never had a problem. And our original 1863 .577 cal Springfields used FFG from 5 lb cans also from the same period. We did use fresh-cast and lubed minie' balls.

Thank you. Sounds like these circa 1980 cans of FFG should shoot ok in our cannons. I am still leery about the FFFG, but I like the suggestion above to do deliberate squib loads with taters. Guessing half an ounce charge should be safe. Only powder we have used is Scheutzen Cannon Grade, very coarse and slow burning. We send all kinds of projectiles hundreds of yards.

 

[maillemaker]

Be careful with gifted powder. Make sure that the container was not re-purposed for something else, like smokeless powder.

 

[pamtnman]

Be careful with gifted powder. Make sure that the container was not re-purposed for something else, like smokeless powder.

Excellent point, thank you. I am skeptical of all old cartridges, old powders unless they are sealed and original. There is just no telling what might have been done with them. I think this FFG is going to be good salute and squib load material. We normally use fuse to fire the cannons, but a trickle of FFFG and a long linstock can work, too. Got a lot of good ideas, advice and suggestions here. Really appreciate it

 

[Jay Templin]

At Jamestown and Yorktown we use 2F for blank artillery charges and 3F for priming as a matter of policy. You don’t say what size guns you have (what I consider a “big bore” cannon is probably not what you’re talking about) but in a 6 pound gun in good shape, a half pound blank charge is perfectly safe and impressively noisy.
Jay

 

[pamtnman]

At Jamestown and Yorktown we use 2F for blank artillery charges and 3F for priming as a matter of policy. You don’t say what size guns you have (what I consider a “big bore” cannon is probably not what you’re talking about) but in a 6 pound gun in good shape, a half pound blank charge is perfectly safe and impressively noisy.
Jay

“Our two cannons have bores 2” and 2.5” in diameter.”
My impression is most guys think of those smaller 1” salute cannons as the standard. It is amazing how quickly a cast iron cannon increases in overall size and weight to accommodate a relatively minor increase in bore diameter.
Thank you for your experienced FFG suggestion, it helps clear my concerns. Nice to have the original question addressed. People were questioning my sanity, my patriotism, my intelligence because I don’t want to pour old mystery powder down the gullet of my treasured firearms
We have always used green fuse in the touch hole, but I like the idea of the FFFG in there, and a linstock.

 

[TVG.75]

I like to follow the N-SSA artillery rules stating the use of Fg or courser powder for projectiles.

"Maximum powder charges for all cannon shall be limited to the amount permitted by the chart as published in Table 10.1. Only commercially manufactured black powder of American standard Fg granulation (150,000 granules per pound or 220 granules per 10 gr.wt. (avdp.) sample), or a coarser granulation, may be used."

I use 2.25 oz or half of the maximum charge of cannon grade in a 2.25" Hern gun with a 22 oz zinc ball.

In a much larger, thicker, Trail Rock Ordnance 2.5" gun I use 4 oz of cannon grade with concrete filled 16 oz beer can projectiles. The maximum as per the N-SSA chart would be 5 oz of Fg or courser.

For blanks I use the same charges with an equivalent weight of flour ahead of it in the tinfoil.

I would stick to using the FFFg for linstock use as you mentioned. This is exactly what I do for both guns. It's to fine for even blanks in my opinion unless ridiculously low amounts are used.

I would not be afraid to work up a load, especially a blank load, with FFG by starting with 1 oz of FFG & flour equivalent to the charge volume.
I may even be tempted to measure recoil distance & compare to your normal Scheutzen Cannon Grade blank recoil distance. I do not believe that I would use a projectile with FFg personally.

 

[nit wit]

I would try the powder for hunting, I;ve shot stuff from the 30's, no issues if the cans are sealed.
Nit Wit

 

[pamtnman]

I would try the powder for hunting, I;ve shot stuff from the 30's, no issues if the cans are sealed.
Nit Wit

The cans are all opened, partially full, several have labels made of tape with chickenscratch on them. The oldest printed production date is 1980, several have no production date and look older than 1980, are painted olive drab, and do have producer names I have never heard of. I do a lot of research on old bp cartridges, and I frequently encounter powders from bygone days. Not these curiosities. So this is a collection of mystery powders of questionable quality and even questionable substance. The ones that look 2F we will use as cannon salute and entertainment squib loads, as recommended above, and the 3F we will try to use as ignition. Pretty good re-use of basically old barn finds. Thanks again for all the good natured help, as was requested.

 

[TheDoubleD]

Sometime back Matt Switlik pressure tested Cannon grade vs. FG in a 3 inch Ordnance rifle. With service loads of equal volume and he got a 40% increase in Pressure with a significant difference in velocity with Fg vs Cannon.. The test was published in the Artilleryman Magazine.

I would be real careful using the finer faster burning powders in cannon. The guidance is to not use faster burning , smaller grained than FG in cannons 1 inch a greater. Smaller than one inch follow recommended safe loads for equivalent bore, shoulder and hand held guns. Even then reduce the loads to start and work up. Cannons are free recoiling. Heavy charges break carriages-ask me.

 

[pamtnman]

Sometime back Matt Switlik pressure tested Cannon grade vs. FG in a 3 inch Ordnance rifle. With service loads of equal volume and he got a 40% increase in Pressure with a significant difference in velocity with Fg vs Cannon.. The test was published in the Artilleryman Magazine.

I would be real careful using the finer faster burning powders in cannon. The guidance is to not use faster burning , smaller grained than FG in cannons 1 inch a greater. Smaller than one inch follow recommended safe loads for equivalent bore, shoulder and hand held guns. Even then reduce the loads to start and work up. Cannons are free recoiling. Heavy charges break carriages-ask me.

Thank you for the helpful advice, I really do appreciate it. We are going with half-ounce charges of the FFG, in cannons we normally fire off 2-3 ounces of FG/Cannon grade in. So We will be backing way off the charge volume, and just enjoying the salutation we send around the valley.

 

[TheDoubleD]

Why not just get some FG or Cannon grade powder.

If shooting blanks, and if allowed in your shooting venue, use an equal volume of flour in front of your charge. It will up the noise a bit and and increase the smoke cloud. I does have mass in the bore and will move you gun a little, but the flour disperses in the air.

 

[pamtnman]

Why not just get some FG or Cannon grade powder.

If shooting blanks, and if allowed in your shooting venue, use an equal volume of flour in front of your charge. It will up the noise a bit and and increase the smoke cloud. I does have mass in the bore and will move you gun a little, but the flour disperses in the air.

Thanks for the flour suggestion. I have plenty of Scheutzen FG and cannon grade powder (thought I said this, but maybe I didn’t). This post is about whether or not a large (to me) quantity of recent barn-find quality bp of purported FFG and FFFG granulation could or should be used in cannons. Small charges with the FFG and FFFG as touch hole fuse have been the universal recommendations, and will be followed through. Again, the containers are very old, open, partially full, and in the end are of unknown or unknowable material. Someone above pointed out this powder could have been adulterated etc, which is a possibility that keeps me from taking a chance with my beloved rifles. Cannons are more robust.

 

[TheDoubleD]

I can't offer my 2 bits worth of opinion on your old powder, without looking at it.

What is the diameter of your vent? You might be able use the FFFg as a quill powder. Others may have comment on the safety of this process but when I couldn't find FFFFG for priming powder, I have ground larger grained powder up fine for quills.

I myself do not prime a vent with loose powder. I use fuse or quills. Loose powder erodes the vent and causes excessive fouling in the vent make cleaning difficult, even with a good vent prick. 17 cal bore brush, especially an old wore out one, works good for cleaning vents

Powder primed vents need airspace around the grains so they ignite instantly. If the if the vent is packed tight with powder it burn slow like a fuse before firing the main charge. The tight packed vent can hang fire or even mis fire. A misfire because of the vent is a scary thing to deal with.

My vents are .200 for the large guns inch and over. Some use friction primers. Guns smaller than inch all use green cannon fuse and are 1-1/2 caliber. (1/8" green fuse 1-1/2 caliber would 3/16") I have a large quantity of paper art straws that I make quills from them.

If I am doing noise making firing I use green cannon fuse..

Quill are easy to make with scotch tape and paper straws. I think have a box of straws up in storage--would you like some?

Cannon are only a little more robust. Failures in them can be very dramatic.