Canoe Gun: the real story

[matt denison]

I'm starting a new thread since the last one deteriated into derision for the OP and soon became a place for you guys to express disdain for short guns and the people who make them or own them. This quote moivated me:


I thought that was how the "canoe gun" came to be. Folks ignored the historical record and made a niche to create a market or justify a modern product

Those "folks" would be Bob Rathbun, former owner of North Star West. About 1990 - 1992 a fellow from Canada asked Bob to make him a gun short enough to be LOADED SITTING DOWN IN A CANOE. They sat down in a camp chair and experimented and measured to find out what barrel length and length of pull (LOP) were required to form a gun that would have an overall length of approx. 40". They settled on an 18" barrel and LOP of 12", just long enough to shoulder the gun fairly comfortable. The customer was happy with the decisions made, put a deposit down and asked that the gun be delivered to a forthcoming rendezvous in the Pacific Northwest. Bob arrived at that rendezvous and hung the gun in his trade tent waiting for the customer to come claim it. While it hung there several guys admired it, asked questions and ordered one for themselves. In fact they became quite popular. So popular that North Star West put them in their catalog and called them - not a buffalo runner, not a barn gun or a choped off trade gun - they were called a Canoe GuN. Because the original was meant to be SHORT ENOUGH THAT IT COULD BE LOADED SITTING DOWN IN A CANOE. Since then we have lengthened the barrel to 20" to make more efficient use of barrel material that comes in 12' lengths and added another 1/2 inch to the LOP.

Neither Bob or North Star created the niche. Customers that wanted a short, handy, light gun created the niche. North Star created the name because you have to call it ... something. That name has become universal now to denote a short barreled gun. There are several builders who now make short barreled guns and call them Canoe Guns. Fellows like Rifleman2 make their own from an existing gun too. Trust me, they are very popular, in fact I am shipping one to Colorado today to a fellow who is quivering in anticipation of its arrival.

No one is ignoring the historical record. We are making a gun that people want. No one on this board knows the historical record better than me - well, maybe RodL or LaBonte. No one is trying to pull the wool over innocent eyes to take advantage of unsuspecting customers. Our Canoe Gun is made with the exact same components as the Northwest gun except it is short, similar to the many hundreds that were cut down by so many Natives. I'll leave the speculation of why they were cut down up to you.

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

Nice

Thanks Matt

 

[hoochiepapa]

Well said.

 

[Le Grand]

Quite well said and it's about time...

 

[bnail]

I'm starting a new thread since the last one deteriated into derision for the OP and soon became a place for you guys to express disdain for short guns and the people who make them or own them. This quote moivated me:


I thought that was how the "canoe gun" came to be. Folks ignored the historical record and made a niche to create a market or a ustify a modern product. . .

his is going to sound argumentative so I apologize up front, but It looks like your entire narrative supports your quote of contention. the gun was a niche gun for a niche purpose. with no mention of history in the specifications.

and as for the 'historical record," I would ammend it to read Archeological record. And barrels that short have not shown up in the documents of sites that I've read.

consequently, I guess I'm missing the argument.
is someone claiming that a canoe gun is historically acurate?
NSW doesnt claim authenticity on their description of the gun.

I think if someone wants to use this gun more power to'em but don't insult my intelligence with vague myths as references. the op on the previous post made no such claim he was just having fun.

 

[BrownBear]

No one is ignoring the historical record. We are making a gun that people want. No one on this board knows the historical record better than me - well, maybe RodL or LaBonte. No one is trying to pull the wool over innocent eyes to take advantage of unsuspecting customers. Our Canoe Gun is made with the exact same components as the Northwest gun except it is short, similar to the many hundreds that were cut down by so many Natives. I'll leave the speculation of why they were cut down up to you.

You tried laffindog, and I greatly appreciate the history. It makes perfect sense, and I salute you both for the history and the product.

But I'm willing to bet guys can't leave well enough alone when they're more about typing than shooting. It's a mid-winter thing and happens every year.

Thanks again! :hatsoff:

 

[BillinOregon]

I've always admired the little canoe guns, but then I admire blunderbusses as well.

 

[Robby]

"And now, you know the rest of the story!" P.H.
I didn't know that, thanks for the information laffindog. No opinion on the rest of it, other than the heart wants what the heart wants.
Robby

 

[bnail]

I've always admired the little canoe guns, but then I admire blunderbusses as well.

Well Said Bill! :applause:
I too like the short guns, especially the ones that have an authentic pedigree. :thumbsup:

 

[bnail]

"And now, you know the rest of the story!" P.H.
I didn't know that, thanks for the information laffindog. No opinion on the rest of it, other than the heart wants what the heart wants.
Robby

Ditto. thanks for the insight PH. it was much appreciated.

 

[tg]

Good post Matt, I see the issue mainly as one of those cases where folks buy something they like then try to make it fit into history, the only real problem with this is that it can lead newcommers down a slippery slope. "Early" guns are another biggy now in this respect, it is common to take a 1790 style gun and widen the buttstock and put an earlier lock and wooden patch box and wow you have an F&I Bucks or such, I personaly think the shorter guns would be better if the thimbles were moved somehwat and the barrel actually cut so it was a bit thicker at the muzzle to give more of the impression that it had been cutdown not made that way, which is the real issue for many with this type of gun. it would be nice if more 18th century examples of cut down guns from a wide range of locals was there to help, I am curios Matt as to the "hundreds" or examples you mantioned, are these 18th century vintage or later which is pretty much accepted across the board? I do not see any change in the way these are accepted (or not) as the continued insistance that they were everywhere in the 18th century just brings out the requests for the evidence to support this and then the "just like today people modified things to suit their need" comes out and 12 pages later it fizzles out.PS I do not think anyone "blames" you Matt for the Canoe gun Phenom. the folks on the forums pushing the PC/HC issue to validate their choices about them are the cause of concern to me for newcommers getting lead astray, NSW offeres a great line of guns which fit quite nicely into history including a gun with a cut down barrel,(which is no doubt way over represented % wise as with many other things,) it is the buying community that has driven this gun into being an "issue" of sorts for the re-enactment community.

 

[LaBonte]

I'm starting a new thread since the last one deteriated into derision for the OP and soon became a place for you guys to express disdain for short guns and the people who make them or own them. This quote moivated me:


I thought that was how the "canoe gun" came to be. Folks ignored the historical record and made a niche to create a market or a ustify a modern product. . .

his is going to sound argumentative so I apologize up front, but It looks like your entire narrative supports your quote of contention. the gun was a niche gun for a niche purpose. with no mention of history in the specifications.

and as for the 'historical record," I would ammend it to read Archeological record. And barrels that short have not shown up in the documents of sites that I've read.

consequently, I guess I'm missing the argument.
is someone claiming that a canoe gun is historically acurate?
NSW doesnt claim authenticity on their description of the gun.

I think if someone wants to use this gun more power to'em but don't insult my intelligence with vague myths as references. the op on the previous post made no such claim he was just having fun.

Once again while the "canoe gun" maybe soemthing of a modernization, the historical and archeo records, short barreled trade guns such as the canoe gun (albeit not by that name) show up all over out here in the west post 1830 or so. Some trade guns were ordered directly with shorter barrels such as the 24" and 30", but scads more were made by cutting down existing guns - there are bunches of such guns in the various western museums and collections and many are recorded in various publications.
Why were they cut down: Two reasons come to mind, burst barrels (which based on the written period records occured fairly frequently, especially in winter) and secondly many more IMO were cut down ON PURPOSE for buffalo running.
The buffalo robe, tongue, and pemmican trade was huge, by the mid-1830's, and a short barreled gun is much handier (both for shooting and reloading at a run) when running buffalo - while I have never got to actually hunt buffalo on horseback I have in the past practiced what would be needed to do so while at a run on horseback. A gun with a barrel any longer than 30" absolute max is a pure pain and I'm 6' tall with long arms. A shorter 24" would have been even handier for me and even shorter might be handier for shorter folks. Pistols were also widely used for buffalo running but mostly by whites.

Why the name and subject of canoe or blanket guns or whatever moniker has been attached to them seems to stick in the craw of some folks still evades me.
Agreed there is little to no historical/archeo records for such short barreled trade guns, pre-1800's and east of the Missouri/Mississippi, but the world did not end in 1799 and there's a lot of land out west where such guns existed and were used - as always the research depends on who, when, and where.

 

[LaBonte]

I personaly think the shorter guns would be better if the thimbles were moved somehwat and the barrel actually cut so it was a bit thicker at the muzzle to give more of the impression that it had been cutdown not made that way, which is the real issue for many with this type of gun

Tg - the problem being with the end of the barrel thickness -
1) It would vary and did vary in period based on the original length of the barrel - a cut down 42" would be fatter at the muzzle than would be a cut down 36" barrel.
2) Original barrels often vary considerably in size due to the methods of making and the lack of QC?
So IMO it would be tough to define exactly waht the barrel thickness should be.
As for thimbles - the originals could have been moved.
So yes if you really want to get painstaking about having a proper historic cut down trade gun one could easily mimic it, even from the start, but again there is no real way to say this or that would have to be exactly "this way" in order to make such a piece.

 

[F.G. Ford]

Great story and great information!
I have one also, and it is great to hunt with and easy to move about with as well
Old Ford

 

[BrownBear]

...but the world did not end in 1799 and there's a lot of land out west....

And dat's dah truth. :hatsoff:

 

[Mike Brooks]

Because the original was meant to be SHORT ENOUGH THAT IT COULD BE LOADED SITTING DOWN IN A CANOE

I have spent considerable time hunting with a muzzleloader out of a canoe and always sat down while loading it. My "canoe gun" was a Carolina gun with a 48" barrel. I have no problems loading such a long gun sitting in a canoe.
And yes, records indicate that after 1800 barrel preferences got consistently shorter, as short as 24". I suspect shorter barrels had far more to do with pains NDN's horse back culture than anything at all to do with canoes.
Geez, couldn't you guys have at least called it a "Buffalo Runner"? At least it would have a remotely historical use in it's name.
"Canoe gun" still, and always will bug the manure out of me. Just like Jackie Brown's miss represented "carolina gun"

 

[BrownBear]

Though buffalo running was a very popular sport in its day and short guns were preferred, I don't recall ever seeing historic reference to a gun called a "Buffalo Runner."

There are two sides to any semantic game. They have nothing to do with reality. You can market your gun as a Buffalo Runner if you want, but it is no more valid a name than Canoe Gun.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Well, Matt, I never directed a bad word towards you or your product other than the label, and you know that currently and in the past I in fact praise your work and send folks your way. But since you quoted me I will stand pat that I'm still in hitting in the black even though I should have said "filled" vs. "created" the niche. Obviously they are desireable to some. So is crack cocaine. :wink:

I will even go so far as to acknowlege that shortened guns were carried into a fort (under blankets) in a "sneak" attack in the 1870's (can't recall which fort).

Heck, it ain't got a scope, a bolt or a berdan primer so I guess I'm just all happy about them. But I still chuckle when it comes up. Now we can pick on those that "sit in canoes" when they should be kneeling. :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

Sorry, couldn't resist. :v I'll make it my New Year's resolution to lighten up on the topic.

 

[Mike Brooks]

My balls are unbusted.

As is my desire for a short gun for loading in canoes.

Your offense at the term is the only ball buster I can see. Though buffalo running was a very popular sport in its day and short guns were preferred, I don't recall ever seeing historic reference to a gun called a "Buffalo Runner."

There are two sides to any semantic game. They have nothing to do with reality. You can market your gun as a Buffalo Runner if you want, but it is no more valid a name than Canoe Gun.

Words mean things. "Buffalo running" has far more in common with this type of gun than "canoes".
I have supported Matt in his business and turn customers his way when I can. He provides an excellent product. So, just let me have my quirks fellas and let me dislike the term "canoe gun". :haha:

 

[hanshi]

Great post. I really like short guns, rifles, canoe/canute/buffalo running/ etc. Shooters today have different needs than they did 200 years ago. With all due respect to the knowledgeable historians in our midst, I see a tendency toward judging the 99% by the remaining 1%.