Canoe Gun: the real story

[jbrowngunmaker]

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Shooters today have different needs than they did 200 years ago.

Yep.
There are all kinds of " niches" being "scratched" for today's shooter.
:grin:

"early VA"? is my fav

 

[LaBonte]

And yes, records indicate that after 1800 barrel preferences got consistently shorter, as short as 24". I suspect shorter barrels had far more to do with pains NDN's horse back culture than anything at all to do with canoes.
"Canoe gun" still, and always will bug the manure out of me.

Mike - I do understand about the name, since I get the same cringe when folks want to build a shot/bullet/hunting pouch and call it a "possibles bag" - two different things entirely, but I just cringe and go on - life I have found is way too short to let such get seriously under my skin anymore.

As for the 1800 date - I beleive one one caveat is in order - English double gun barrels in particular began to shorten after the introduction of Nock's Breech in 1787.
I also believe that improvements in gun powder created some of the changes, and then there is just the plain ole change in style. Still here in the States long barrels on both rifles and trade guns stayed popular for some well into the 1800's - most of the RMFT fur trade orders for rifles were for barrels in the 40-46" range, with some going down to 36-38" starting in the 1830's.

 

[Mike Brooks]

And yes, records indicate that after 1800 barrel preferences got consistently shorter, as short as 24". I suspect shorter barrels had far more to do with pains NDN's horse back culture than anything at all to do with canoes.
"Canoe gun" still, and always will bug the manure out of me.

Mike - I do understand about the name, since I get the same cringe when folks want to build a shot/bullet/hunting pouch and call it a "possibles bag" - two different things entirely, but I just cringe and go on - life I have found is way too short to let such get seriously under my skin anymore.

As for the 1800 date - I beleive one one caveat is in order - English double gun barrels in particular began to shorten after the introduction of Nock's Breech in 1787.
I also believe that improvements in gun powder created some of the changes, and then there is just the plain ole change in style. Still here in the States long barrels on both rifles and trade guns stayed popular for some well into the 1800's - most of the RMFT fur trade orders for rifles were for barrels in the 40-46" range, with some going down to 36-38" starting in the 1830's.

I agree 100% with every thing in your post. With you it's possibles bags. With me it's canoe guns. Believe me, I don't loose any sleep with this stuff in real life. Right now my main focus is putting one more deer in the freezer by the 10th. :thumbsup:
I see ol' JB has contributed his 2 cents to the thread. :blah: :haha:

 

[jbrowngunmaker]

I'm semi retired. Two cents is all I had. :grin:

 

[Mike Brooks]

I'm semi retired. Two cents is all I had. :grin:

:haha: :thumbsup:

 

[BillinOregon]

Thank God we've all decided to play nicely together on this thread. May it be so on many other threads in this new year!

 

[hoochiepapa]

Hey, Mike! Could ya load that 48 incher in this??

 

[Stumpkiller]

Add a deck net and a bungee or two and I'm game. I can assemble and thread a 9 ft fly rod on mine without it, the reel or me taking a dunk. :haha:

 

[wahkahchimaol.com]

Laffindog, that's great information. I don't own one of your guns...yet. I have to wonder...are we not making history now, here in the 21st Century? So if we want to walk around in the forest or ride a kayak with a gun which was created to be loadable upright while seated in a canoe, is that not part of history too? I like to run or Nordic ski up to 10 miles with my flintlock fully unloaded, wondering if I will blunder into something shootable as I run. If a short-barreled gun works for me...well, it simply works. And if it's called a "canoe gun" in the trade, then it's nice to know why! Thank you!

 

[BillinOregon]

So how DO you load a 42-inch barreled flinter while in a canoe, and with somebody shooting balls or arrows at you? Just wondering.
And Stumpy, you have me beat; I always manage to dunk the fly reel when threading a fly rod in a kayak.
:redface:

 

[tg]

"is that not part of history too"

Absolutely and the TC guns are history to circa 1970 or so but mixing the curent hostotru with that from 250 years ago is what gets confusing with out some standards based on information/evidence about what was around 250 years ago.It is not so much the terms bit the leap of faith that the terms were relevant in the past not just as being terms that were used but terms to describe a gun that back then was intended for a specific purpose which is lacking here with the short guns for the most part, the guns needed to be called someting and canoe gun is Ok but is not really meant to be valid for a specific type/length of gun made in the past for specific use in canoes, and arguement to the contrary with no period support does get old

 

[robertdale]

I guess I should say Matt's verison is spot on. I'm the guy who built it and sold it. also shot it with 5 other gys at a paper plate at about 25 yds, give or take a foot or so with a prb.. every one hit the plate. Called it good. never thought all the dust up was much .ya all need to get out and shoot what ya brung. Bob "ironjaw" Rathbun

 

[wahkahchimaol.com]

TG, that's a great point. We can call modern short barreled guns "Canoe guns' but we cannot infer at all that guns which were built in the 19th, 18th, or 17th Century were in any way "canoe guns". Works for me.

 

[Mike Brooks]

ya all need to get out and shoot what ya brung.

I'll be shooting today...in fact I've been shooting alot lately. :thumbsup:

 

[ericb]

Been following/pursuing/studying this stuff for over 50 years, during most of which I never heard or came across the term "Canoe Gun". But a few years ago, when a friend asked to show me his "Canoe Gun" (made by Mark Wheland) I said Well H*ll yeah! Having been raised along the banks of the Rivanna in Virginia, and then later the Susquehanna and Juniata in Pennsylvania, I immediately formed a mental image of what I thought a "Canoe Gun" might be, and when Tom later showed me the piece, it did not disappoint. Hard to describe, but that gun simply belonged in a Birch Bark Canoe, gliding along Dark Hemlock Banks, with all the sights, sounds, and smells associated therewith. I don't think it's so much a matter of Caliber, Style, or Furniture, but rather how obviously suited the Gun appears to be for the mission the name implies. Here in PA one hears the expression "Tractor Gun", which could be a Savage 110, a Win. 94, a Mossberg 500, or Double 12, or something else, but when one uses the term "Tractor Gun", everybody knows exactly what you mean.

I'm fine with the term "Canoe Gun" - I think it's much more colorful and descriptive than, say, "Short Fowler", and it is certainly more adaptive and flexible; it defines Mission, not Style .

I guess it's kinda like what the Judge said about Pornography: " I may not be able to define it, but I know it when I see it..."

Eric

 

[Stumpkiller]

True 'nuff. "Tractor Guns" are the kind you don't worry a few scratches and scuffs on and are rugged enough to shrug off abuse and neglect. Like a war weary Mosin-Nagant.

When I hear "Barn Gun" I think of something that has been in use for scores of years and is worn and beat up, still more or less fires safely, is too good to just toss away or part out but not so good you won't risk leaving it where leaky roof rain, mice and dust can have their way with it. I almost got done in as a kid when a friend I was with found his grandpa's "Barn Gun" and it turned out to be quite loaded and functional. A Stevens break-open single shot 12 ga shotgun with the forend taped on with old tarred-cloth electrical tape comes to mind as a current example. :wink:

And then there's "Schimmel", which is German for "mold" or "mildew" (From the older "scimmel", which means "rust" in Middle Dutch). Nothing to do with plain or unornamented, but old and grungy. :grin:

 

[BrownBear]

Good points.

Most related to my own world and uses is a "saddle gun." When I was too young for a CF, the "powers that be" let me ride with an old Remington single shot 22, just because no self respecting cowboy would be caught dead without a saddle gun. When I was deemed old enough I received a lever 30-30 and rode with that till about 20 years ago. Took a lot of guff, but since the menu was mostly coyotes I switched to a modern semi in 223. Now almost everyone rides with one, but they still call them "saddle guns."

I suspect that since the first guy swapped from lance to gun long before bringing horses to this continent, they've all been "saddle guns," and damn the details.

 

[hanshi]

Yep.
There are all kinds of " niches" being "scratched" for today's shooter.
:grin:

"early VA"? is my fav[/quote]


Very true. Our military no longer use flint muskets just as unenlightened hunters don't use flintlocks.

And WE are making history and WE will be studied decades from now. I don't see anything wrong with coming up with convenient names for things; or adapting old styles to fit our present needs. Basically I believe one should be able to get (MLs) whatever blows their skirt up. I like short guns for particular uses. Doubt if I'd ever use the term "canoe gun"; likely I'd just say "the shorty". This is a fine age for ML lovers. :thumbsup:

 

[BrownBear]

Doubt if I'd ever use the term "canoe gun"; likely I'd just say "the shorty". This is a fine age for ML lovers. :thumbsup:

I hear you. If I put it together for use in my canoe it's a canoe gun. I'd more likely call it my truck gun, considering how little I have canoed lately.

Name usually follows function for me, though the guys I shoot with disagree on one count. I have a short barreled 58 I call my "brush gun," but they call it #@$%$#@@#$!, or "Dang" if civilized ears are handy. It's about the loudest thing you can imagine and no fun for bystanders, even if it meets my needs perfectly.

We get all spun up about using the RIGHT name, when it's malarchy. When early Virginias were in use they didn't call them early Virginias. If the builder was good, they might name him. If it was just a common gun like everyone else was carrying, it was probably called a gun.

I'm rereading Mashach Browning's journal right now, and he sure went through a lot of guns in 44 years of hunting the frontier. Yet I can't recall him ever mentioning style. He mentioned 1-ounce balls in one of them, but that's about as far as it went. To him they were just guns.