Can't find a BP Gun?

[luieb45]

I heard something over the internet that inlines now have 95% of the market and will probably be more in the next couple of years.

 

[mykeal]

Those are pretty harsh words IMO. My intent wasn't to be negative.
Would running a BP league count?
Would belonging to the NMLRA count?
Would belonging to the TMA count?
Would belonging to the NRA count?
Would belonging to my State Ass. count?
I try.

Yes, they were harsh words.
And your words were certainly negative. In your future, bp sports are 'dead' - your word, and how that's not negative escapes me.
'Belonging' counts, but only insofar as it provides money to those who actually do the work. Teaching counts the most.

Like the rest of you I lament the few (did we forget USFA? And of course the custom builders?) US manufacturers of bp guns. But whether the manufacturers are US based or not is not the issue here; that's a different argument. This thread is about the negative view that many have of the future of our sport, and the evidence they present to support their dirge.

Look, my whole point is that the sport is what YOU make of it. If you want to sit around and whine, then, fine, that's exactly what you'll get out of it. But that's not for me and a lot of other people. It's a niche sport. It never has been and never will be as big as trap shooting or some other shooting sports. Get over it, and enjoy what you have. And stop telling everyone else it's doomed, or you might just get what you ask for.

 

[R.M.]

mykeal
I am really offended by your words. I'd really doubt you know any more about me, or what I do for the sport, than what I just posted, yet you are criticizing me for not doing enough.

I thought those that post personal attacks here were supposed to get a time out. That last post was a personal attack as far as I'm concerned.

Now, getting back to the original post. It's a sign of the times I guess. We're lucky that at least a few of European companies still produce something that resembles guns from the past, and as long as we can get good parts for custom builds, the sport will continue.

 

[Zoar]

Traditional Black Powder shooting will always be a small niche.

I am delighted there are builders in the US and elsewhere and that there are parts suppliers in the US and elsewhere.

I have gotten into flintlocks in the past 3 years or so. Before that I only shot modern. So I have added to the ranks and from reading posts here for about a year or so I see new people coming in regularly.

Many companies have been swallowed up, merged or gone out of business. People die from old age or retire and they close up their small businesses. That is capitalism. It has been happening always. There is no tragedy going on in the Traditonal Muzzle Loader world from what I can see and sure I spend money in the market and it helps keep some of these guys in business. I've spent thousands in the past couple of years and it has gone to an array of vendors and small companies and larger companies who names appear in this forum. That is how it has always worked. But I don't know anyone who goes into traditional muzzle loading with the idea they will turn their business into a BIG co and sell it off for many millions. That IS the mentality in many other markets, but it does not apply here at all.

We do it certainly for the passion and the joy we get from it. And if we can make a "good living" at it (not HUGE) that is reward enough.

 

[poordevil]

I remember when the only ML guns were the Zouve and Mississippi rifle for 99 bucks. That is when I got my Parker-Hale Musketoon....before they made the other 2 guns in the Enfield line.

You also had the indifferent pistols and long guns. NOW we have some finely made import guns and many US custom makers. I think ML-ing is far from dead :2

 

[mykeal]

First of all, I apologize for any personal inference you took from my words. It was not my intent to be personal.

However, I must say that I do not believe anything in my posts was a personal attack. I didn't call you any names, nor impugn your intelligence or integrity. I did say that the word you used (your word, not mine) to describe the future of our sport was negative, and if that's a personal attack I'm befuddled but guilty.

I will also say that if the offense you took personally was because I claim that simply belonging to an organization is insufficient evidence of supporting a cause or position, then I invite you to rethink the thesis. Here's why: I'm an officer in a sportsman's club. We maintain two shooting ranges, one of which is open to the public three days a week. It takes a great deal of manpower to maintain the range facilities; repairs are constantly needed and personnel must be on duty during public hours to ensure safety and protect club assets. We are a volunteer organization; of some 350 members we can count on no more than half a dozen to meet our needs during regular hours and less than 20 when we call for a special 'work bee' event. The rest feel that by simply paying dues they're 'supporting' the club. I hope you can see why I don't feel that they're entitled to make that claim. In your case you claimed only to belong to several organizations; with no more information, I can only conclude that you are part of that latter group. If I'm wrong, I apologize, but I can only go by what you tell me.

 

[R.M.]

mykeal
Your apology is accepted.
Maybe I should expand on what I say, but as a poor typist, I tend to be lazy, and make things short and sweet, and unfortunately, am misunderstood at times.
I too am an officer of my club, and understand completely about the work load, and the few that do it all.
When I used the term "Death", it was used as a possibility, not a definite forecast.
I like to think that I love the sport as much as the next guy, if not more. Nuff said. :v

 

[mykeal]

Nuff said. :v

Agreed. The coffee is on me.

 

[LeMat1856]

10-27-09 08:37 AM - Post#775824
In response to Zoar

I remember when the only ML guns were the Zouve and Mississippi rifle for 99 bucks. That is when I got my Parker-Hale Musketoon....before they made the other 2 guns in the Enfield line.

You also had the indifferent pistols and long guns. NOW we have some finely made import guns and many US custom makers. I think ML-ing is far from dead

so, poordevil, would you say this socalled "niche" market is actually growing ?

how long have you been into BP ? if you can remember, how many models and makers were there ?

fyi, i can tell you this: my copy of "blue book of modern blackpowder arms" (5th edition) lists about 200 pages of individual weapons - including some inline.. if we could find the 1st edition, it would simple math to see the real trend.

~d~

 

[LeMat1856]

The problem, as described, is that BP shooting is a niche market. In fact, we love it because it is. We love that it connects us to generations of other shooters long before us. We love that it allows us to do things the old way. We think there's a certain beauty in the lines of a wooden stock...the elegance of a lock...the intricate details that show that someone thought enough of the sport to invest hundreds of hours to make a single gun. We love the smell...the sound...the smoke. We embrace the challenge of mastering that which our forebearers discarded for modern efficiency (which has it's own beauty that many of us also appreciate). We are not the norm. We are the crazy sort who take pleasure in doing things the hard way. Even if we were living in the times we act like we're in, we would be those people who embrace even older weapons, because that's just who we are.....

widget350,

a great post.
touching and very well said.

~d~

 

[poordevil]

I got my first ML when I was in 8th grade, about 1973. It was a not-too-good, used Hawes 1860 Army with a brass frame.

I don't remember how many shops there were. Navy Arms was going strong and had that cool little Blunderbuss with the brass Barrel.

I do remember that there very few custom makers and non of the CW guns out now were offered then.

Navy Arms is now onto Cowboy shooting. I think because they had their foot in the door and so many others were doing ML.

SO...I would say since 1973 there are more choices, more companies and more goodies to make these gun go bang, therefore the sport appears to have grown and is growing.

P

 

[NJStricker]

Traditional BP is a niche market, as others have said.

Before Dixie Gun Works and Navy Arms, what options did people have? Refab an original piece? Have a smith make custom parts/repairs?

It's great that we have TC. But up until their recent purchase by S&W, they have always catered to a niche market. Look at their line up of guns up until the last 15 years or so--they made single shot pistols/carbines and black powder rifles. No repeating cartridge arms until much later.

To put a positive spin on things, I have to wonder how many people have been introduced to traditional BP shooting because they tried an in-line first? How many would never have thought to try them if we didn't have inlines? I agree, I don't care for them. But I think that the trad BP market is expanded and more secure because of them. Just my guess/opinion.

BTW, this is interesting--Knight firearms is no more:
http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/hunting/2009/06/knight-rifles-goes-under

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

:thumbsup: I agree with your entire answer.

That's why I run a league and was just elected to my club's Board of Trustees. This kid ISN'T in the recliner

Dave

 

[Walks with fire]

There are alot of people into the inline market anymore; I myself don't care for them. I went thru the centerfire rifle stage and still have some but don't use them much anymore. I use the BP sidelock guns for the most part for most all shooting. There isn't much of a challenge to scoped rifles and doesn't give me any satisfaction what-so-ever anymore.

I have gathered up enough BP stuff to last my lifetime. I have a couple TC guns that work well for me after a little tuning up; they are not guns I would take to a traditional shoot but they are fine for the deer hunting/target/varmints shooting I do. I live in PA and as most of you know we have a generous flintlock only deer season after Christmas permitting buck or doe with your general license. We are allowed any projectile over .44 as long as it's flintlock ignition.

One of my favorite rifles is a TC PA Hunter with a 32" 1/66 twist 50 caliber that I have a drop-in GM 28" 1/28 twist 50 barrel for. I also have a 21" 1/66 twist barrel for the stock as well. I glass bedded the rifle and tuned the single trigger with a lighter spring and it's extremely accurate with all the barrels with their correct loads. I can shoot 0-150+ yards with whatever power or energy needed for the game being hunted. Projectile from patched roundball to 400 grain conical to pistol bullet in a sabot. I shoot patched balls most but enjoy the other options as well. About the only thing I might add to this set-up is a .36 caliber rb barrel about 24" long for small game; any longer and it would be a bit heavy in 15/16".

I doubt that I would have ever gotten into it if I didn't live in PA as it started as an extra season thing. The amount of people may decline in time but it's not going away entirely. I don't care much what other people do; I do what interests me. The big conicals are what I have been working with as of late. I do intend to build a rifle or two from scratch before I die and do quite a bit of research on the subject. I learn alot from this forum and the builders here; someday I will give it a whirl. I gotta go the full stock swamped barrel route when I do and pretty much have settled on a .58 caliber. Sorry for the long story.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Yes. some have gone by the wayside. Like Century Arms, Ultra High, Markwell and some other real turkeys. The one I miss is the traditional CVA offerrings. The early ones definitely weren't the best. However, most anything they sold in the 1980's was fair or better. I still think the CVA Mountain Rifle is the overall best production gun ever made. Thompson Center may have better fit and finish, but CVA's Mtn rifle was usually more accurate.

Overall, the market has better quality now. I don't care for in-lines. If it weren't for in-lines there would probably be a better offering of traditional guns.

Like many folks, I skimped, scraped and saved and got a custom gun. A well tuned flint lock is truely an unbelieveable joy. There are those who think their production guns are just the cats meow. And I smile and remember when I was one of them. Ignorant of how the gun is supposed to perform when done up properly.

Thankfully the newbies and production affectionados are not hampered and frustrated by the horrific manure that was sold in the 1970's.

The market changes, makers come and go, muzzleloading will live on, or until some idiot from California is able to enforce a powder ban on the rest of us.

 

[Mulebrain]

I was just thinking, and back on topic!!

I know for sure there are plenty of BP arms for sale! You know how I know?? Cause I couldn't buy them all! :rotf: