Cap Jam Fix On Colt Pocket Models

[45D]

You keep missing that the hand never slows down or stops pushing on the ratchet through out the stroke so there is no braking or rotation slow down action taking place ,even if the spring tension did increase.

If your thumb slips off the hammer spur (happens in competition rather frequently) the hand stops as well. If there's insufficient hand spring tension, you'll have throw-by. In some cases throw-by will happen during "spirited" cocking or even intermittently with normal cycling. All of these are CLASSIC signs of a weak hand spring.

The hand thrust is continuous and the rotation speed increases because the hand contact on the ratchet tooth moves closer to center of cylinder axis pushing continuously . . .

and the hand STAYS engaged under the same tooth and over the ramp to the next tooth . . . Just like in my above pictures !!

until bolt drop brakes and finally stops rotation.

No, only LOCKUP stops rotation.
Many new Italian copies come with very late bolt drop, often hitting the edge of the notch which will move material into the locking notch. Until the newly moved material hinders lockup, the revolvers still operate (without throw-by ) with "normal" cycling so the bolt DRAGGING on your cylinder ISN'T the "braking force" to thwart throw-by (Hasn't been, on a Colt design, for almost 200 yrs!!).

Early bolt drop . . .

Is a sign of : cam wear, bolt arm wear, poor timing setup, a too short hand (has been for almost 200 yrs).

. . . as dragging your thumb when checking hand length in slow cycle.

You're not checking "hand length" in slow cycle . . . that would be "bolt drop".

When you check a hand for full bolt drop lock up length . . .

Correct hand length is purely the length that allows simultaneous bolt lockup and full cock. (nothing to do with bolt drop)

Just so all else knows, ALL of this is explained, in detail, in Jerry Kuhnhausen's book "The Colt Single Action Revolvers" A shop manual volumes 1 & 2.

Mike

 

[D Yager]

Jerry's book is my Bible on these pistols. If I'm still puzzled I call Mike. Mr. Deland once again has demonstrated his lack of knowledge on how these pistols work and his desire not to learn how they work. Mike and I both work on these things all the time, I am always learning some new quirk or technique to handle the odd problems that show up. Mr. Deland contradicts himself in that last tirade on how the hand works against the ratchet. First he says the hand contributes no braking action then in the next he implies that it does. The real answer is that if there's spring tension on the hand it will act as a brake...it's called friction...The key is how much friction and braking action is applied. If you have a weak wimpy hand spring the cylinder does the flywheel thing and keeps going. Bolt drop at the right time helps keep things from overshooting the locking notches but that braking from the hand really helps, especially on the pocket models.

 

[M. De Land]

Jerry's book is my Bible on these pistols. If I'm still puzzled I call Mike. Mr. Deland once again has demonstrated his lack of knowledge on how these pistols work and his desire not to learn how they work. Mike and I both work on these things all the time, I am always learning some new quirk or technique to handle the odd problems that show up. Mr. Deland contradicts himself in that last tirade on how the hand works against the ratchet. First he says the hand contributes no braking action then in the next he implies that it does. The real answer is that if there's spring tension on the hand it will act as a brake...it's called friction...The key is how much friction and braking action is applied. If you have a weak wimpy hand spring the cylinder does the flywheel thing and keeps going. Bolt drop at the right time helps keep things from overshooting the locking notches but that braking from the hand really helps, especially on the pocket models.

You and Mike simply are not understanding the mechanics/physics of what is actually taking place. There is no cylinder rotation speed decrease or braking action taking place in the stroke cycle via the hand. Additional hand spring tension would not effect it even if it did exist because the pressure against the ratchet tooth is continuous and rotation speed ever increasing into bolt drop and lock up.. I've already explained in detail why this is true because hand width contact against the the ratchet tooth is ever moving closer to center of cylinder axis through out the stroke.
If what you say were true about hand braking action than a short hand would likely not be able to push the cylinder into lock up from inertia alone which is why we apply thumb pressure to the cylinder to check for a short hand.

 

[M. De Land]

Hey!!! Had a couple of "Yahoos" (grandkidos) spend the night at "Honey and Papa's" last night (!!) yep, early start (5:50 this morning!). After church and a stop at "Waffles' House" (what the youngest calls it) I'm back in the shop for the afternoon (no rest for the weary!).

So, the hand movement through cylinder rotation as it moves through a cycle is basically the same from start to finish. The hand is "trapped" and held in position, under the tooth it's pushing and the "ramp" of the next one as the action cycles. With the angle of the hand slot continuously increasing the spring pressure as the hand moves up, it is more and more "influenced" to maintain position. At the same time the plane of the ratchet remains vertical. So, the hand is moving forward under increasing pressure against a surface that is staying vertical . . . if the cylinder is influenced to rotate faster (by inertia say) than the cycle is dictating, the spring pressure discourages that and the hand won't let that happen. If the spring pressure isn't sufficient though, the cyl could bypass the hand and mis the timing for lockup. Resulting in Throw-by.
Therefore, hand spring tension is critical to keeping Throw-by from happening.
Since CORRECT bolt drop happens within the approach ( 1-2 bolt widths before the notch) that is not enough influence to negate Throw-by.
Of course someone will say dropping the bolt EARLY will supply the braking !! SURE IT WILL but that's like driving you car with your foot on the brakes . . . it's not designed or set up for that, which leads to worn / broken parts.

If you're not going to follow the design and what the designers say, then "rules don't apply". You can have ugly "Beauty Rings" on your cylinder and parts that wear/break, horrific timing and such . . . or you can maintain a SA that runs perfectly and keeps it's beauty ( and value!!).

Mike

So, here's the hand engagement through the cycle -
View attachment 373702
At rest.
View attachment 373703
Half cock.
View attachment 373704
Bolt drop.
View attachment 373707
Full cock.
Notice that the hand maintains its position from "engagement" all the way to full cock. The cylinder can't "pass" the hand because the hand spring tension won't allow it.

Notice in your full cock picture the "inside" of the hand is still contacting the ratchet tooth into full bolt drop lock up. Also notice the hand is making contact with the ratchet tooth on the "outside" at the bottom of the stroke.
Contact of the hand and ratchet tooth are maintained through out the stroke beginning from "outside" the hand width and progressing to "inside" the hand width thus at the beginning we have more leverage and less travel of rotation. As the contact moves across the hand width we gain more travel/ rotation speed and less leverage because contact is moving closer to center of cylinder axis.
Now couple the mechanical rotation speed increase with the cocking action on the hammer spur of our thumb and we gain an additional increase of energy into rotation speed and momentum. When physically cocking a hammer the end of a normal stroke is moving faster than the beginning of the stroke.
Think !

 

[D Yager]

He's off his meds again. He needs to check his ego and he actually learn something.

 

[Dickydalton]

Maybe he'll stop on Jan 20 like the other one???

 

[D Yager]

doubt it, common sense is not in play here. I think he just likes to argue no matter how wrong or off the rails he goes.

 

[45D]

You and Mike simply are not understanding the mechanics/physics of what is actually taking place.

On the contrary sir, I TOTALLY understand the situation. I've been setting up championship revolvers for over a decade.
You seem to think everything happens "all by itself". There's "other" forces at play and at the same time.
If the "bolt on the cylinder" was the breaking force needed for lockup, don't you think it would say so in the Kuhnhausen book, or Jim Martin would have told me, or the head of the Custom Shop at Colt would have told Jim?. Wouldn't it be more common knowledge among gunsmiths/tuners of SA revolvers? Do you really think after almost 200 yrs YOU are the one that figured out how a 200 yr old design works? The designers didn't have a clue? My my . . .

There is no cylinder rotation speed decrease or braking action taking place in the stroke cycle via the hand. Additional hand spring tension would not effect it even if it did exist . . .

So your saying that the hand is "forward" in its travel by magic ? There's no spring involved? No such thing as a "hand spring"? The fact is, the hand MAINTAINS its position UNDER the ratchet tooth and ABOVE the ramp to the next tooth BECAUSE there is a spring imparting force on the hand . . . throughout the cycle!!

I've already explained in detail why this is true because hand width contact against the the ratchet tooth is ever moving closer to center of cylinder axis through out the stroke.

That's right!! But as I said, there's MORE THAN just THAT going on!!!
WHILE the hand is doing what you say, the HAND SPRING is keeping constant forward force against the cylinder . . . throughout the stroke!

If what you say were true about hand braking action than a short hand would likely not be able to push the cylinder into lock up from inertia alone which is why we apply thumb pressure to the cylinder to check for a short hand.

Again, you check "bolt drop" (where) by dragging a finger. Correct "hand length" is when full cock and cylinder lockup happen simultaneously (bolt is on the cylinder at that point, typically 1-2 bolt widths before the notch . . . obviously not soon enough to be the sole braking force!).
BTW, when at full cock, my revolvers don't have hand/ ratchet contact with hammer held back against the stop. (There's you a head scratcher!!!)

Mike

 

[45D]

Notice in your full cock picture the "inside" of the hand is still contacting the ratchet tooth into full bolt drop lock up. Also notice the hand is making contact with the ratchet tooth on the "outside" at the bottom of the stroke.
Contact of the hand and ratchet tooth are maintained through out the stroke beginning from "outside" the hand width and progressing to "inside" the hand width thus at the beginning we have more leverage and less travel of rotation. As the contact moves across the hand width we gain more travel/ rotation speed and less leverage because contact is moving closer to center of cylinder axis.
Now couple the mechanical rotation speed increase with the cocking action on the hammer spur of our thumb and we gain an additional increase of energy into rotation speed and momentum. When physically cocking a hammer the end of a normal stroke is moving faster than the beginning of the stroke.

That's a nice explanation of the interactions of the hand and ratchet during the rotation but there's absolutely NO mention of the CONSTANT FORWARD FORCE that hand is imparting on the cylinder which is keeping the hand in the same position (right under the tooth AND on top of the ramp (doesn't stay there by magic))!! The cylinder CAN'T "outrun" the hand because . . . THE HAND WON'T LET IT!!!

BTW, the "additional speed" induced because of the contact patch moving from outside to inside is insignificant. The shear strength of the bolt head is maybe greater than you think. A fanning gun drops the bolt roughly 2-2 1/2 bolt widths before the notch AND has a short hand. The hand is short so you don't FORCE a throw-by . . . rotation is still stopped by lockup . . . bolt "drag" is still minimal . . .

Mike

 

[D Yager]

This fellow really doesn't want to learn. Reckon he don't grasp the concept of friction or believes braking involves having asbestos pads involved.

 

[Dude]

Something relevant to this topic is nipple oriface diameter. In other discussions concerning rifles, the data is that a new nipple should measure out around .024". They're worn out and should be replaced by the time they reach .032".

So why is it that our new Italian pistol nipples start out at .035"? I just measured my new, unfired, 1862 .36 Police and found that one was .035", three are .037" and one is .038". If nothing else, that's disgusting quality control!

I've measured nipple orifaces before and it seems they were in that same area around .035". Is there a reason why pistol orifaces should be so much larger than rifles? I know Colt manufactured his own nipples - does anyone have the patent drawing for them? What was the spec'd diameter?

I have a feeling this is a greater contributor to cap jams than anything else.

 

[M. De Land]

Something relevant to this topic is nipple oriface diameter. In other discussions concerning rifles, the data is that a new nipple should measure out around .024". They're worn out and should be replaced by the time they reach .032".

So why is it that our new Italian pistol nipples start out at .035"? I just measured my new, unfired, 1862 .36 Police and found that one was .035", three are .037" and one is .038". If nothing else, that's disgusting quality control!

I've measured nipple orifaces before and it seems they were in that same area around .035". Is there a reason why pistol orifaces should be so much larger than rifles? I know Colt manufactured his own nipples - does anyone have the patent drawing for them? What was the spec'd diameter?

I have a feeling this is a greater contributor to cap jams than anything else.

I've noticed that accuracy falls off when the orifice begins to become misshaped by erosion in my match rifles.
Another indicator is when the hammers are blown back to half cock and the split caps do not stay on the nipple cone under the hammer face.
Match rifles that use conical bullets are really tough on nipples because they produce more breech pressure.
Nipples react the same wither on rifle or pistol they just last longer on pistols because the pressure is less and hammer fall not as powerful.

This fellow really doesn't want to learn. Reckon he don't grasp the concept of friction or believes braking involves having asbestos pads involved.

Your guys trouble is you believe everything you have been taught by a mentor or have read in a service manual, won't challenge anything written in or taught by them and are unable to reason out mechanical problems for your selves.
At least three of you still maintain open frame guns have the same design strength potential of closed frame guns which is ludicrous ! Now that is a blaring example of ego driven nonsense !
Apparently you wish to remain ignorant................ so be it !

 

[D Yager]

One of the things Mr Deland is apparently incapable of grasping is the ability to think outside the box. If anyone is being ignorant it is Mr. Deland. You refuse steadfastly to believe what is right in front of your own eyes. Mike and I deal with these revolvers on a very regular basis. We see some interesting things come through that need a different approach that ain't in any book. We can usually find a solution. So far all I've seen from Mr D is a lot of hot air and silly notions about how a revolver works and again it proves he doesn't understand the platform. Maybe he should stick to playing with stuff he does understand and stop trying to confuse folks here that do want to know how these pistols work. And no I don't go by everything that is taught by a mentor or read in a book. Both methods are merely guides to finding a solution to a particular problem. Just because someone has always done it a certain way doesn't make it the right way or the only way. Perhaps Mr Deland should ask some questions instead of offering up advice or observations that make no sense.

 

[French Colonial]

Someone please!

Remove the lockup, increase and decrease the hand tension and take pictures of where the cylinder stops on its own.

Report back.