Carbines

[BruceHuxford]

I don't know if anyone can answer this question, but I'm hopeful. Were carbines used during the American Revolution and after at all or are they strictly Civil War and after? I'm working on an idea for a new persona and I would like to use a carbine

 

[morehops52]

Looking forward to some educated answers here. I really like carbines and refer to my Deerstalker as my black powder carbine although it's stretchin' it a bit.

 

[Hermit Tim]

I'd like to hear from those more historically knowledgeable than I on this topic.

 

[TDM]

Maybe @Rob M. can shed some light. I known they had the shorter “canoe” guns in Colonial times.

 

[Billy-by-gosh]

I don't know how knowledgeable I can be but here's what I have seen.
The earlier carbines were often called musketoons. Aside from the various shortened muskets in the American Revolution, the British army had a Paget carbine in the very early years of the 1800s. There was also a French 1777 Model Flintlock Carbine or Musketoon introduced during the American Revolution, and later came their 1816 Light Cavalry carbine. I know there are many others, but hopefully this will get you started. Visual styles can be seen on the miilitary heritage website (not a recommendation to buy anything but you can see what these looked like).
More to read at Wikipedia - Carbine - Wikipedia.

 

[BruceHuxford]

I don't know how knowledgeable I can be but here's what I have seen.
The earlier carbines were often called musketoons. Aside from the various shortened muskets in the American Revolution, the British army had a Paget carbine in the very early years of the 1800s. There was also a French 1777 Model Flintlock Carbine or Musketoon iIntroduced during the American Revolution, and later came their 1816 Light Cavalry carbine. I know there are many others, but hopefully this will get you started. Visual styles can be seen on the miilitary heritage website (not a recommendation to buy anything but you can see what these looked like).
More to read at Wikipedia - Carbine - Wikipedia.

Thanks

 

[BruceHuxford]

I just took a look at their site and found it very interesting, again thanks

 

[Billy-by-gosh]

I just took a look at their site and found it very interesting, again thanks

Glad to help, and best wishes on you endeavors!

 

[BruceHuxford]

Glad to help, and best wishes on you endeavors!

Thanks, if things go right, I will be portraying a South Carolina swamprat who once served in the military as a calvaryman and who has a bad case of wanderlust

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Carbines were used on both sides but they differ somewhat from the concept of carbines employed during the American Civil War. The term applied more to bore size than barrel length. For example, in British service, carbine meant a gun of carbine bore (0.66" caliber) that fired carbine ammunition (0.615"). Barrel length might vary from 28" to 42". Carbines were always lighter and handier but they were not all short barreled. Barrel length depended more on the intended user of the carbine. Light infantry and dragoons (who fought on foot but used horses for mobility) often had longer (42") barreled carbines, while cavalry (who fought on horse back) had short barreled guns. Dragoon carbines became shorter as the role of the dragoons changed from being mounted infantry to acting as cavalry. Artillerymen and sergeants were often issued carbines with 36-39" barrels depending on the pattern. Americans also use carbines for similar applications. Rifles issued by the British (pattern 1776 muzzleloading rifle and Ferguson rifle) were alos of carbine bore and had shorter barrels.

dave

 

[Grenadier1758]

It is worth noting that the carbine designation was more for bore size than for barrel length. Officers' muskets, which were purchased privately, and custom made, were often of carbine caliber. These were built to the land pattern model, so they had the superficial look of a land pattern musket but were considerably more refined.

It is worth noting that for an issued military musket of any configuration, the musket was the property of the military and was not taken by the user at the end of hostilities but returned to military storage. A deserter might have taken his issued firearm, but a discharged soldier would have turned in his issued musket.

 

[oldwood]

Think it was back in the early 1980's , I helped Kit Ravenshear finish up an order for some French 1777 Cavalry carbines. Can't remember what they looked like except they were carbine size rifles. Special order Getz barrels , Fred Miller did the preshaping on the wood using Kit's pattern. I think these guns were special order for a museum in Europe. Sorry , that's all I can remember.

 

[Sooty Scot]

Thank you, all. This information and these research leads are very helpful.

Some years ago, I replaced a Deerstalker (which I found to be a well-made, very accurate, little rifle) with a longer barreled, more HC designed rifle for reenacting, largely because of criticism that it was "too short".

I don't miss it; the replacement is a better rifle in every way- except handling in close undergrowth.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I don't know if anyone can answer this question, but I'm hopeful. Were carbines used during the American Revolution and after at all or are they strictly Civil War and after? I'm working on an idea for a new persona and I would like to use a carbine

The problem is what is meant by the word "carbine", as Dave Person above mentioned, it was at first a smaller caliber musket, but not necessarily a "shorter" one.

However, the British did shorten some guns which today are called "artillery carbines", and there were also "officer fusils" normally a lot like a Bess, but smaller caliber. Add to that "musketoon" which a lot of folks think means shorter, but..., in some cases we just don't know.

For example, here is an extract from the inventory of the armory in Annapolis Maryland for October 24th, 1763, right after the F&I has concluded in North America...

In the Council Chamber 200 Muskets with Slings, appear to be in good Order.... 35 Pistols.... 86 fire Locks Short Muskets & Carbines ... 68 old Muskets and Carbines some without Locks and many with Broken Locks.... 104 Old Muskets most of which without Locks & not worth repairing...., 30 Blue Cases for Muskets, 10 listed Cases for Carbines,

SO..., what's the difference between a "short musket" and a "carbine". Is a carbine of smaller caliber only? Is the musket a "short musket" when it's shorter than the regular musket, BUT a carbine is also shorter AND a smaller caliber? What makes a musket "Old" is it age or is it design, or both? The cases for the guns are different, so why would that be if the carbines and muskets were the same length, would not the cases be the same size, or does THAT indicate that carbines were significantly shorter and not just a few inches shorter ???


LD

 

[BruceHuxford]

Thanks, see that was my problem, when you think carbine, you think short and lighter caliber. So, I'm thinking in some respects that I can carry a shortened firearm, carbine, and be correct too

 

[morehops52]

Very interesting info seeing how the concept or "definition" of carbine has changed over time. Based on what I've seen in contemporary rifle catalogs or reading various stories by gun writers the carbine is almost always a shorter version of a similar rifle even in larger calibers. To think that a arm with a 42 in barrel was considered a carbine at one time means that I learned something new today....and that makes it a good day.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Here is an example of the British pattern 1760 light infantry carbine with 42" barrel and 0.66" caliber bore.

It weighs just under 8 lbs, which is 2 lbs lighter than the King's pattern musket of the period. It is currently owned by a reenactor who uses it on horseback.

dave

 

[fireman1]

Dave,

Did you build that? It looks awesome.

 

[ord sgt]

If you have a rifle in mind, the Jaegar is a relatively short barreled rifle, compared to the Pennsylvania long rifle or fowler. Fitted with a sling, easily carried over the shoulder. My Jaegar has a barrel length of 31", Getz swamped barrel. Just 6" longer than my CW Enfield carbine.

 

[dave_person]

Dave,

Did you build that? It looks awesome.

Yes. Thanks
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...ish-pattern-1760-light-infantry-fusil.116956/
dave