Carrying on empty

[colmoultrie]

There was one maker, Manhattan, that designed cylinder stop notches in between the chambers, so the pistol could be safely carried with all chambers loaded.

But then again, at tleast the first two series of Manhattans were five-shot .36's, so having all chambers loaded was a lot handier.

I wonder why this system was never copied, especially in lighter calibers, where metal removal wouldn't be too great a problem.

 

[mykeal]

Your attitude is disappointing in the extreme. This isn't about stupidity, it's about knowledge. I'm sorry you were not willing to contribute.

 

[mukluk]

Interesting discussion. As an aside, it seems to me like the whole hammer snagging when holstering mess can be easily averted by holding the hammer forward with your thumb :hmm:

 

[mykeal]

Interesting discussion. As an aside, it seems to me like the whole hammer snagging when holstering mess can be easily averted by holding the hammer forward with your thumb :hmm:

Yes, it can. Good point. There are many ways to mitigate that one scenario. If we always pay close attention to what we are doing the world will be a lot safer. We are, however, human, and we make mistakes or get distracted. Carrying on empty is one way to lessen the impact of that human trait.

 

[Claude Mathis]

Here is my worthless input.....if a person is so careless and/or reckless that he shoots himself in the leg then he deserves that injury. Safety should be first and foremost in your mind while handling firearms of any type but if you shoot yourself while holstering your weapon..... maybe if we stop trying to save every idiot from themselves they would die off and not breed more idiots.

Not every person that has an accident is an idiot.

 

[brubincam]

both of my brothers are IDIOTS----years ago they were trying fast draw with their 22 revolvers---I was not there---one shot himself in the foot---the other shot himself in the leg--- :shake: :shake: :shake: my mom says they are my brothers,JUST TAKING HER WORD FOR IT--- :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

 

[mykeal]

Just wanted to add some pictures that illustrate the points I made above, to kind of summarize my thinking and demonstrate the logic.

Here's a composite picture: the left frame shows the ROA hammer fully engaged in a between-chamber 'safety' notch on the back of the cylinder. Keep in mind that in this position the bolt is not engaged in a cylinder stop notch, so all one has to do to move the cylinder is raise the hammer enough to clear the 'safety' notch. The middle frame shows just that condition: the hammer has been drawn back so that it just clears the notch, and the cylinder is free to rotate. In this case it needs to rotate only 30 degrees and the bolt will drop into a cylinder stop notch, stopping the rotation with a capped, loaded chamber in battery. The right frame shows the hammer being drawn back from a nipple; the starting position was down on the uncapped nipple. In this starting position the bolt is engaged in a cylinder stop notch. The hammer has long since cleared the nipple but the cylinder was stopped from rotating until the bolt retracted. The picture was taken at that point; notice the difference in hammer position between the middle and right frames - in the case when the hammer starts from an empty chamber it has to move much further before the cylinder is capable of being rotated. In addition, the cylinder has to rotate twice as far - 60 degrees - before a capped, loaded chamber is in battery for the hammer to fall on it. Clearly the case where the hammer starts out on an empty chamber is significantly safer than the case where it is in one of the 'safety' notches.

The same is true for the 1858 Remington:

I'm going to try to track down a copy of The Backwoodsman and send Rusty Keller a letter about his article. Perhaps he hasn't thought this through and the above might help.

 

[scott k]

Clearly the case where the hammer starts out on an empty chamber is significantly safer than the case where it is in one of the 'safety' notches.

Lets faces the facts. We are taking about a gun.
Putting the hammer on a empty chamber or a safety notch does not make it safe. The person makes it safe.
If Colt made the gun with safety notches in 1851 I'm sure they put them there to be used as a safety notch. Other wise they would be called unsafely notches :wink:
One more point, safety was not as much a concern back then as it is today.
I believe the emty camber is more from the Colt cartridge gun not the cap and ball guns.Just my thoughts.
Lehigh...

 

[noworries]

Here is my worthless input.....if a person is so careless and/or reckless that he shoots himself in the leg then he deserves that injury. Safety should be first and foremost in your mind while handling firearms of any type but if you shoot yourself while holstering your weapon..... maybe if we stop trying to save every idiot from themselves they would die off and not breed more idiots.

Not every person that has an accident is an idiot.

I never said that every person that has an accident is an idiot and would completely agree with you. Crashing your car into a tree due to ice on the road does not make you an idiot, however, doing it while reading a book or playing the guitar.....idiot! That being said, if you shoot yourself or tragically, someone else, due to your negligence, inept, careless or reckless firearm handling then you, in fact, are an idiot. I see this as not an issue of being uninformed but just another example of "if just one person is saved" we are asked to conform (or in some cases forced)to do something that should be our choice and as adults and free men/women we need to accept the consequences or our actions. I have never witnessed, heard of or read about an AD that wasn't due to careless behavior and I would venture to guess that EVERYONE reading this has seen someone on the firing line acting recklessly or dangerously and your thought was "idiot"

You my feel my attitude is disappointing in the extreme and I can live with that but I still say if you shoot yourself while holstering your weapon...you deserve that injury! :v

 

[mykeal]

Clearly the case where the hammer starts out on an empty chamber is significantly safer than the case where it is in one of the 'safety' notches.

Lets faces the facts. We are taking about a gun.
Putting the hammer on a empty chamber or a safety notch does not make it safe. The person makes it safe.

Reread the posts. Nobody said that carrying on empty made the gun safe. I just said it was SAFER than using the between-chamber pins or notches.

 

[Mulebrain]

Some pistols were designed to be carried with all the chambers loaded. Pins on some Colt cylinders were for this purpose.

The Remington 1858, probably has the safest system for carrying them all loaded. It is a much safer design, with the hammer locking into the cylinder recess.

I for one always load all cylinders, and carry it that way, especially if the Colt has stop pins on the cylinder or the Remington.

Not all pistols have this feature, and with those pistols resting the hammer in between the caps is more dangerous.

MB

 

[mykeal]

The whole idea of this thread was to provide people with information they can use to be safer when handling a gun. My disappointment with your post was that your contribution to the effort was name calling.

Human beings make mistakes; there are many different causes. Some are the result of ignorance (lack of information), others are the result of idiocy (the inability to use the information) and still others are the result of stupidity (possessing both the information and the ability to use it, but failing to do so). When you make mistakes, which of these is the reason? Feel free to call yourself whatever name you wish...

 

[rebel727]

Well, here's what Colt's Patent Fire-Arms Manufacturing Company had to say:
From an advertisement undated but circa 1873 because it says:

"Colt's New Model Army Metallic Cartridge Revolving Pistol
It has been adopted by the War Department for the Cavalry Service of the United States...

...To load the pistol, 1st motion: holding the pistol in the left hand, muzzle downward, half cock it with the right hand and open the gate. 2nd motion: Insert the cartridges in succession with the right hand, close the gate, cock and fire it (taking it in the right hand) or bring the hammer to the safety notch as may be desired.

There are three notches in the hammer of this pistol. The first is the safety notch, the second is the half cock notch, and the third is the cock notch. The pistol cannot be fired when the hammer rests in the safety notch or the half cock notch, and can be fired by pulling the trigger when the hammer rests in the cock notch.
The pistol should be carried habitually with the hammer resting in the safety notch."

The same instructions are given in an 1884 brochure.

An 1898 catalogue item for the Bisley does not have instructions but simply says:
"These Revolvers should be carried with the hammer resting in the Safety Notch.


The Army said, in part, in Extracts from Ordnance Notes, No. V, Washington, June 27th, 1873: "This revolver is supplied with a safety notch on which it can be carried without the firing pin touching the cartridge."

 

[noworries]

The whole idea of this thread was to provide people with information they can use to be safer when handling a gun. My disappointment with your post was that your contribution to the effort was name calling.

Human beings make mistakes; there are many different causes. Some are the result of ignorance (lack of information), others are the result of idiocy (the inability to use the information) and still others are the result of stupidity (possessing both the information and the ability to use it, but failing to do so). When you make mistakes, which of these is the reason? Feel free to call yourself whatever name you wish...

Never called anyone a name in the original post.....for what it is worth, both of my boys have been taught to always rest the hammer of their revolvers on an empty chamber exactly because we are humans and mistakes happen. In answer to your question, when I make a mistake (several times a week usually) it is due to stupidity, at times because I am an idiot and on occasion ignorance....you?

 

[Bear Rider]

I scanned through this thread, and from what I saw, nobody has yet touched on the main reason for the five round rule, which began with the advent of cartridge handguns, specifically with Colt's famous model P revolver. With the sixth chamber loaded on a Colt revolver, the firing pin was either resting on the primer, or suspended slightly above it by the safety notch. It was (and still is) quite common for the hammer to be struck by things falling on it. It doesn't take all that much impact to break off the trigger or safety notch. If the hammer is setting over a live round, you have a real danger of an accidental discharge. In the case of a percussion revolver with it's hammer setting on the cylinder safety notch this would be a non-event.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I've seen some folks load all six chambers of a SAA and then lower the hammer down between the cartridge heads. I'll bet this got started from men who used the old C&B safety pins and safety notches that preceded the breech loaders.

 

[mykeal]

I scanned through this thread, and from what I saw, nobody has yet touched on the main reason for the five round rule, which began with the advent of cartridge handguns, specifically with Colt's famous model P revolver. With the sixth chamber loaded on a Colt revolver, the firing pin was either resting on the primer, or suspended slightly above it by the safety notch. It was (and still is) quite common for the hammer to be struck by things falling on it. It doesn't take all that much impact to break off the trigger or safety notch. If the hammer is setting over a live round, you have a real danger of an accidental discharge. In the case of a percussion revolver with it's hammer setting on the cylinder safety notch this would be a non-event.

The point of the thread was to discuss whether carrying on empty was, as a practical matter, safer than carrying on a between-chamber safety pin or notch. The origins of the practice of carrying on empty were not at issue, but thanks for your input on that.

Perhaps you'd care to take another look at the thread with that in mind.

 

[Claude Mathis]

In the case of a percussion revolver with it's hammer setting on the cylinder safety notch this would be a non-event.

On this Forum, nothing is a "non-event". :haha:

 

[mazo kid]

Mykeal, just as a matter of safety, I will CARRY with the hammer on the empty chamber. I thought you might be interested in what a Colt broadsheet of 1858 had to say. Please note that I am NOT advocating we do this! The quote is from a page of the broadsheet outlining "Simple Reasons For Preferring Colt's Arm to All Others: #11. They can be carried loaded and capped, with entire safety. In rain, or when wading or swimming rivers, they remain waterproof." Evidently they were not as safety conscious as we are today. As an aside, I went down and checked my C&B revolvers for safety pins/notches with the following results:
Original Colt 1860 - none
Hawes 1873 (cartridge) none
Pietta 1858 Remingtons- notches
Lyman 1860 - pins
Uberti Colts - none
Pietta Colts - none
Ruger Old Army - notches
The above quote does make you wonder just how they were carried "in complete safety" while loaded and capped!

 

[sharps54]

My Pietta 1858 Remingtons and 1862 Colt (not to mention my buddy's Pietta 1860 Colt) all have safety notches or pins. That said I use 'em for cowboy action so I can only load 5 anyhow!