Certainly tin does harden the alloy, it is and was used for that purpose but it's hardening effect is limited and tin is a relatively expensive metal. Antimony is a much cheaper way to increase hardness of a lead alloy but some tin is still required to obtain a good pour. Hard antimony alloys like Linotype metal are used in breechloading firearms with smokeless powder and bullets of full groove diameter or larger. Antimony alloys are too hard for muzzleloaders where some upset of the bullet is needed to fill the rifling grooves.
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Casting pure lead Help!
- Thread starter Misfit-45
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Yes, that's why I was curious about Mr. Hogghead's assertion that "many guys shooting hard cast bullets likes Linotype". It's not something I've experienced within muzzle loading.
David
David
What I was trying to say(and thought I did) was that Tn is not used in alloys to harden the alloy. Tn is used to give a better flow of the alloy. An above poster said that Tn was used as a hardener. And as stated. Yes it is a slight hardener, but it's main purpose is to give better flow and mold fill. Not hardness. If hardness is the desired effect then it is much more effective, and considerably cheaper to just use linotype or antimony to harden your lead. Or just water quench or oven treat your bullets for a harder bullet. Tom.
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Nonetheless tin is widely used by those shooting long range muzzle loading to cast hardened bullets. 40:1-30:1 lead:tin mixes are typically used.Hogghead said:
I have also seen original packaging for Sharps breech loader long range bullets which identifies alloys of 14:1 and 11:1 lead:tin.
David
i found casting 560 grain ph minie's that i have to set the mold right in the lead for 15 minutes to heat it adequately. i have 3-4 bad cast's then they are good. bottom pour lee pot. get the lead and mold good and hot. sometimes i set the ph mold in the lead and cast .44 rb's while waiting for the ph mold to heat up, just add lead ingot's as needed.
Misfit-45 said:
Make sure the vent lines are not burred over at the edge of the cavity or at the outer edge of the mould.
If so a 3 square needle file ground smooth on one flat to form a sharp edge can be used to carefully open them. Be sure not to force the burr out into the cavity, if so it can be taken off with a sharp pointed knife.
Try smoking the mould cavity with a candle or wood match.
Pure lead will require a higher temp to pour well compared to tin:lead alloys. Even 1:40 will pour much better sine tin lowers the temp at which the metal will melt.
If using a ladle try pouring without having the ladle in contact with the sprue plate. I have two 4 cavity moulds that will not cast unless the lead is run in through the hole so as to let a little air escape back out the sprue hole.
Finally is the lead really pure or is it contaminated with something that prevents its making good bullets? If the mould checks out and smoking the mould does not help change to some lead that you are sure is pure.
Dan
redwing said:
Excess tin (much over 1:30-1:20) can actually increase bore leading when shooting "naked bullets". Tin makes the alloy more likely the bond to the bore. This is why alloys over 1:20 are practically unknown in competitions today. 1:16 was common in Winchester bullets to prevent distortion of the bullets in tubular magazines. Sharps longrange PP bullets were 1:16 or 1:14 to (I assume) prevent distortion of the streamlined nose. But the factory bullets were swaged not cast so the tin was added to harden the alloy.
1:20 is significantly harder to swage than lead or 1:40 based on my experience.
Even 1:40 casts far nicer bullets than pure lead though it is little harder. 1:20 is harder, too hard for hunting bullets IMO, but shoots better in some rifles. If I need bullets harder than 1:20 I use WW alloy.
1:10 is not needed and I doubt its any harder or pours any better than the historical ratios such as 1:16. I am sure even 1:16 would be more likely to lead.
Dan
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To get good casts, you have to get the HOT LEAD into the mold QUICKLY, and the air out quickly. If those bleed holes are plugged, the air has to go out the hole in the cut-off plate, both slowing the entry of the HOT lead into the mold, and cooling it down. I agree with your recommendation that he check those bleed holes.
I also still believe that enlarging the hole in the cut-off plate- and on bottom pour pots/furnaces, enlarging the pour hole in the base of the pot-- will greatly help get good casts. My father's bottom pour pot did NOT pour lead fast enough for him go cast good bullets. He also found some burrs or casting dross that prevented the plug from sealing the hole completely, so that he had lead dripping from the spout!
He emptied the pot, cooled it, then removed the plug. He then used a drill to remove the burrs, and to enlarge the hole in the spout. He then polished the tapered section of the plug smooth, before reassembling the the pot.
That cured the slow pour and drip problems with his pot, some 40 years ago.
But, we had some large rifle bullets that simply would not cast fully, and we ended up drilling larger the holes in the cut-off plates, polishing them, and recutting the bevels to cure those problems.
Several years before, I was casting smaller diameter bullets with his equipment, and had the same problem filling these long bullets in the mold. I opened the cut-off holes on those molds, and fixed that problem them.
I was using a dipper to pour those bullets, BTW, and the dipper was fine. However, Dad opened the spout on the dipper when he found the factory diameter allowed too slow a pour to fill his large rifle bullet molds fast enough to prevent rounding of the bottom edges and grease grooves.
I can't tell you the diameter of the drill bits that I used or Dad used. Its been way too many years ago, thank you. But, I can tell you we first used the shank ends of drill bits to figure out the diameter of the existing holes, and then used the next Numbered Drill bit size larger to clean up the holes, and enlarge them a bit. Nothing Dramatic. Dad continued with the next larger drill bit sizes until he solved the problem, and got good casts from the molds and dipper or pot. It was NOT a long-time search project.
I also still believe that enlarging the hole in the cut-off plate- and on bottom pour pots/furnaces, enlarging the pour hole in the base of the pot-- will greatly help get good casts. My father's bottom pour pot did NOT pour lead fast enough for him go cast good bullets. He also found some burrs or casting dross that prevented the plug from sealing the hole completely, so that he had lead dripping from the spout!
He emptied the pot, cooled it, then removed the plug. He then used a drill to remove the burrs, and to enlarge the hole in the spout. He then polished the tapered section of the plug smooth, before reassembling the the pot.
That cured the slow pour and drip problems with his pot, some 40 years ago.
But, we had some large rifle bullets that simply would not cast fully, and we ended up drilling larger the holes in the cut-off plates, polishing them, and recutting the bevels to cure those problems.
Several years before, I was casting smaller diameter bullets with his equipment, and had the same problem filling these long bullets in the mold. I opened the cut-off holes on those molds, and fixed that problem them.
I was using a dipper to pour those bullets, BTW, and the dipper was fine. However, Dad opened the spout on the dipper when he found the factory diameter allowed too slow a pour to fill his large rifle bullet molds fast enough to prevent rounding of the bottom edges and grease grooves.
I can't tell you the diameter of the drill bits that I used or Dad used. Its been way too many years ago, thank you. But, I can tell you we first used the shank ends of drill bits to figure out the diameter of the existing holes, and then used the next Numbered Drill bit size larger to clean up the holes, and enlarge them a bit. Nothing Dramatic. Dad continued with the next larger drill bit sizes until he solved the problem, and got good casts from the molds and dipper or pot. It was NOT a long-time search project.
Ditto on checking the Bleed Vents for Burrs. When I got my Lyman .662 RB Mould from TOW I kept having a problem with wrinkles, using both Ladle and Lee bottom pour furnace. Upon examination I found that several of the Bleed Vents had machining burrs, not allowing proper venting. I cleaned them out, and problem was eliminated...
Eric
Eric
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