Caywood buyers beware

[AZ-Robert]

The concept of them cutting a flintlock and doing a period type conversion to cap is new to me. Is this not what you were sold and received? Did you expect a lock that had been initially produced as a caplock? I have not seen this option mentioned by Caywood on their site.

It doesn't give a lot of detail, but it does say: "In response to numerous requests, we are now offering all of the English fowler pattern guns in PERCUSSION!"

Emphasis is in the original text and not added by me. Quoted from Caywood's site at:

http://www.caywoodguns.com/toppage1.htm

 

[rschissler]

I am sorry to seem daft, but I see the conversion as a more correct and interesting lock. I would probably be quite pleased with it unless it was poorly executed.
CS

It does seem that this would be more historically correct and more efficient economically for the time period, rather than discarding the flintlock and replacing it with a new percussion lock.

On the other hand, there's no excuse for bad customer service in today's world.

 

[TANSTAAFL]

Absolutely, lock is a conversion, If I was buying a semi-custom flint piece converted to a nipple gun, that is not only what I would expect, I would demand it before shelling out the $.

 

[ffffg]

this is the best advice i can give you.. try to always pay for this kind of thing with a credit card.. if you dont like it send it back... they will have to refund your money if its in the time frame and credit card rules.. or they will loose thier credit card status. i side with you and kknow how you feel,, i dont like pedersoli, many have guns from them that they like.. ihave gone around and around about that.. thier is little service for pedersoli to speak of , so if you get a bummer or need parts your in trouble.. to get a gun that is exactly the way you like it it can take a year, ordering and selecting and testing parts, sending each piece back you dont approve of.. when you finnaly get the parts you almost have to build it yourself to get it just so.. its the only way to get anything just the way you want it that i have found.. maybe you could send it back and order from someone like track of the wolf.. if you dont fire it and you dont like it you can send it back.. they have some high end builders selling thier guns there. make a deal with them, that you will buy from them, pay for shipping to and from, and will look at guns until you get the one you want. they may do it i dont know.. i called caywood a month ago to talk about coneing the flashhole.. they were polite, but would not talk to me becouse i wasnt buying a gun.. they doesnt seem like the average black powder people i talk to.. becouse of my experience with them i would not buy a gun from them either.. i prefer jim chambers guns, but i have to put them together myself, and he lets me approve parts... good luck dave..

 

[rich pierce]

Rich, if you were going to use a converted lock on a gun for some reason, I am quite sure the customer would know about it up front. I am not saying that this one did not, but he says he did not. If you delivered the gun with a converted lock without telling the customer, and they did not like it, you would either fix the problem or refund the money. If you had them send it back for lock replacement, you would not send it back without fixing the problem. We are getting the same thing here as on the last reported problem gun. Lots of folks here build guns so they give the builder the benefit of the doubt. That is not right. The customer is always right or the contract is void. That is the real world. Some of the reports we have seen here look more like dealing with an insurance agent or a used car dealer than working with an honest craftsman. That is not just in this thread either. The gun with the rust inside the barrel was defended here also.

I'm thankful for your vote of confidence, Runner, as to what I'd do or not do. I have always figured, "You're only as good as your word and your last deal." That's one reason why I am not in the custom builder business. There are too many variables in my life right now and I can't commit to having this or that done on that date. So consignment works for me, for now. I know the saying that the customer is always right- but have never believed that anybody is always right. It's just a saying that defines where a retailer has to be willing to go to keep a good reputation with customers. Sometimes that is to his knees, and sometimes it should be. In order to afford to do that, a retailer would have to tack on another 10% to his price, so he can afford to take a 50% loss on 1 in 20 customers who may be impossible to satisfy. Not saying that's the case here, but there are such customers, at least back east!

Not sure I defended Caywood- just wanted to warn folks that 30 years of watching the market in black powder tells me that the semi-custom production gun is a tough one to produce and meet obligations. That's just a warning. No doubt, those that advertise a product and fail to deliver are going to be suspect. There are a number of good reliable makers who offer excellent guns at good prices and they get good press here too. Tip Curtis is a name that comes up over and again as a guy who makes good guns and has plenty on stock that a customer can look over. I can't think of a better business model than what he is doing for the mid-range market. Makes a lot of attractive good guns, has them in the white for those who want to finish their own and save money, and folks get to look them over 'cause they are already built. If I was going to buy, not make, a gun in that range, that's the sort of thing I'd go for.

One of the companies who does seem to do very well in that mid-range is North Star West- limited selection but I have always heard good things.

It's fair to warn others about bad customer service, results, etc. Maybe it's also helpful to point folks in a good direction too, and I do believe that buying a gun you get to see and handle first is a good plan that can work for someone who does not need a one of a kind gun.

 

Trigger, I did order the lock that I wanted but what you don't understand is they cut the flint pan off the lock filled the holes and left grind marks in the lock.You don't see it in pictures, not mentioned in the web site and not told to me by the owner, danny caywood prior to buying.


That's the part I do understand Mr. Fatman. I have looked thru their site many times and only seen flintlocks pictured. I only saw a single line of text about percussion guns and no pictures or descriptions. As I see things, your only valid complaint is the finsh not the lock since they don't make any promises about the type of percussion lock supplied. You should have complained about the finish not the lock.
T.

 

[rudy parnell]

I read somewhere that there is no "undiscovered genius". My instincts tell me to beware of those with too many "People Skills". Me, myself, and I just wanted to slam the custom bow maker that hurt my feelings and failed. I get the idea that the gun owner and others have perhaps had their feelings hurt. So much for hurt feelings. You reckon, if we keep paddling that we'll get there? I don't think that anyone on the Forum would intentionally harm the Caywood name....I know that a bunch of you fellars are in business and feel some compunction to defend the business owner. In the end ,I believe that Free Enterprize will do us all justice. But, notice that the brand of justice that people come up with is usually unfair in some way or another and in the very end, falls short..we all fall short. I hope our open discussions help to resolve this unpleasant situation. See ya on the trail...and you too Mr.Danny Caywood. adios

 

[Hoyt]

I read another thread about a yr ago almost identical to Fatman's where someone had problems with one of Caywood's guns and had the same type experience with Caywoods personality.
I was interested in it because I had written Caywood an email trying to get some type of price and info. on a fowler I wanted to have him build for me. I got no response..so built it myself.

 

[ffffg]

i started a buisiness 4 years ago after being in the cabinet buiseness for 23 years. it was time for a change for me, being older.. my new buisness grew leaps and bounds after a two year slow customer discovery period... im down town and had to throw out hundreds of drunks, some good customers.it was a tough buisiness decision, but as Iit was said earlier we cant make everyone happy.. it turned out to be good decision.. i had to make the store so women felt safe..get out the drunks, i increase lighting, widened the isles etc... as time went on i hit a snag, i was swamped, i was working 6 days a week.. i hired my son for two days a week, gave my self a day off, brightened my attitude, got back into making the customer right, and my buisness jumped about 50 percentalmost overnight, just being able to wait on customers becouse my son was helping on the buisiest days, most of which we could anticipate. if you want all the money for your self, refuse to hire good help that costs good money, your probably loosing money... alot of buisnesses dont know how to handle problems,this caouses stress which compounds the problem, and this ulitmatly cuts thier profits considerably... dave.

 

[musketman]

Moderator's Note:

This thread has seemed to generate some heated responses and opinions, the general tone of the thread seemed to calm down some, if they resume I will lock the thread to keep the harmony...

I trust that won't be necessary...

 

[pathfinderifh]

Gemoke, It's not that I feel it isn't a big deal, the guy just seems to me that since he's not getting satisfaction from Caywood, say yer piece and move on. I have fixed a lot of guns for guys who purchased them sight unseen. It happens and hopefully the sellers of these will be out of business real soon. I'm not defending Caywood,they should adress all concerns,exept the lock,and offer a historical explanation why that lock was used. I've delt with the public as a customer service tech for over thirty years,and what Caywood has done is indefencable. Sorry I sounded a little blaise' about Fatmans plight. Not to sound like a smart alec, but would you not adress any problems I had with your firearm?

 

[fatboy]

I told him I did not like the way it looked and that nobody told me that this was being done. Mike told me to send the lock back around the 22nd of Aug because he was getting new locks in from the foundry and they would not be drilled and he would replace mine.I sent the lock back as directed and recieved my new lock on Sept 19. Guess what... same lock holes filled a bit better and a new grind mark in the side of the lock. I sent Danny Caywood a letter explaining my situation. Danny called me and went on to tell me I did not know a thing about locks. I tried to address my dislike with the look of the lock but all he did was talk over me and tell me how much extra time there was involved in making the percussion barrel, not even addressing the lock. I finally was able to stop him from talking and told him what Rowe had said. All Danny could say to me was, too bad, I don't have time for this conversation, I have guns to make. I told him I was the customer and I was very unhappy , that if the gun was going to be a conversion, cutting the pan off the lock, I should have been told and it should

It's sad to hear of this kind treatment ,it appears to be of no concern to him how the customer feels . Mike Rowe told him to return it and it would be replaced and it wasnt replaced with the correct lock plate and came back with grind marks on it. It can't take someone with lock building knowledge as they should have to fix the problem and return it. Caywood is sending a good message , I'am right you are wrong , I got your money and I dont care you peasant. His attitude and crap can go in my old Oliver manure spreader eace:

 

[smokeblower]

Not picking on Caywood, do not know him from Adam, BUTT, the guy above who is not liking a Pedersoli products needs to be reminded that he can own five Pedersoli products to one Caywood. Lets see a 5:1 ratio, I bet if I offered that in gasoline, all of you would line up and fill up. Get the downlow on Caywood from Dixie Gun Works. I have handled enough conversions to know that I would not trust one, old or new. We get them in all the time from old collections. They are called "wall hangers". Check here from time to time for flint-to-cap conversions.
http://www.shilohrelics.com/shop/catalog2.asp?SuperType=Firearms

http://www.shilohrelics.com/Assets/Product/Images/SR153882005926155505.jpg

http://www.shilohrelics.com/Assets/Product/Images/SR153882005926154382.jpg

 

[Mike Brooks]

I have handled enough conversions to know that I would not trust one, old or new. We get them in all the time from old collections. They are called "wall hangers".

Well, I guess there's nothing to say after a knowledgeable statement like that. :winking:

 

[Dave K]

OH MY GAWD! Please tell me it isn't so! You mean I should just stop shooting this reconverted gun that have been shooting all this time? You can buy it and then you can hang it. ::

 

[Stophel]

I'm a builder of some of these "mid range" guns. When I get a custom order, I will ALWAYS tell the prospective customer exactly what to expect, from the lock, to the barrel, to the stock finish. I try to build guns that actually look and feel like 18th century guns. Sometimes the customer needs to be prepared to see scraper marks!

I have seen the old saw "the customer is always right"...well, that ain't so. Sometimes folks don't really know what they want, and sometimes they want something "wrong": "I'm a F&I War reenactor, and I want a rifle just like ________ (insert your favorite original 1770-1780 rifle here). Generally, however, in this field of interest, most folks are educated enough to know basically what is correct and what is not. And then, of course, some customers simply want to be butt heads (I have never had this happen to me, fortunately) no matter what.

However, the only thing I see (and ALL I can see is what has been previously posted...) that Fatman did wrong is that he wanted a per-cussed gun!!! :youcrazy: Yes, the converted lock would be correct, and Cawood was right to say it was correct, HOWEVER, he should have described this in detail before any work was done or any money changed hands. I was not there so cannot say if this did or did not happen. When confronted with the converted lock, he should have said something like "oh, I'm sorry, maybe I didn't tell you about this, this is the only style of percussion lock we do". Maybe he did or didn't, I don't know. If he didn't make a percussion lock that was "unconverted" he shouldn't tell the customer that he would take care of it and replace the lock. If the lock wouldn't be any different, why replace it?

Even though the customer is not "always right" the customer needs to be respected, and he MUST be apprised of every detail BEFORE a deal is made. If the gunmaker makes a mistake or otherwise screws something up, he should happily fix it. If the customer wants to be a pain, there is still no reason for the maker to get belligerent...it only gives the irritating customer ammunition against him. If the customer is not happy for whatever reason, it pays to simply buy the gun back. It keeps the buyer from posting horror stories about you on websites, and even if he doesn't like you, he is left no worse off than he was before, AND you can take the gun built for him and sell it to someone else who understands just what he is getting, so the maker is not really out any time or money. Everyone stays reasonably happy this way.

 

[Runner]

Absolutely!

The customer isn't always right, but when he is wrong the contract is broken.

 

[ffffg]

<the guy above who is not liking a Pedersoli products needs to be reminded that he can own five Pedersoli products to one Caywood. Lets see a 5:1 ratio,>>>
i just checked on a websight for pedersoli mortimers.. the cheapest was 850 dollars, the upper grades were over 3000 dollars... .. poor customer service is not an excuse at any cost,, .. dave

 

[tg]

"Well, I guess there's nothing to say after a knowledgeable statement like that'

Well acually there is....but I won't...

 

[benvenuto]

your wisdom speaks volumes...
:thumbsup:
communication and mutual respect are the keys to keeping customers happy