Can anyone explain what causes a chainfire? My understanding is that a spark from one chamber crosses to another chamber. I use .454 rb in the .450 chambers of my '58 remington. I can't understand why a felt wad will prevent a chainfire when there should not be anything getting past the ball in the first place.
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chain firing
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I dunno if it's out of round chambers or what, but it happens. You'll have some tell you that chain fires are caused by ill fitting caps but I've never had a chainfire unless I didn't lube over the balls or use a wad. I've got an old 58 Remmy that will chainfire every time if you don't use one or the other. It won't chainfire at all with the balls lubed or a wad used, even if all the nipples aren't capped.
Brian the Brit
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This is something that has always puzzled me too. I can't understand how flame can pass an oversize, soft lead ball rammed firmly enough into the chamber to prevent it jumping forward on recoil. I always use grease over ther balls simply to keep fouling soft and lubricate the ram and arbor. I've always thought it a myth that the grease is there to prevent chain fires.
In Colt's original loading instructions from the 1840s he makes no mention of wads or grease so I'm reluctant to believe (until it happens to me of course) that chain fires were ever a problem from the front of the cylinder. I can believe that they might be caused by flashover between the nipples though, particularly if a chamber were to be loaded but not capped for 'safety' reasons.
Thankfully I've never (yet) had a chain fire nor do I know anyone else who has.
Is it a common problem and what's it like when more than one chamber goes off? What happens to the balls, the gun, the shooter and bystanders (gulp)? Has anyone ever been badly injured by such an event?
In Colt's original loading instructions from the 1840s he makes no mention of wads or grease so I'm reluctant to believe (until it happens to me of course) that chain fires were ever a problem from the front of the cylinder. I can believe that they might be caused by flashover between the nipples though, particularly if a chamber were to be loaded but not capped for 'safety' reasons.
Thankfully I've never (yet) had a chain fire nor do I know anyone else who has.
Is it a common problem and what's it like when more than one chamber goes off? What happens to the balls, the gun, the shooter and bystanders (gulp)? Has anyone ever been badly injured by such an event?
First of all, it's not a common occurrence. It's not obviously unheard of, but many people I know have never seen one or had one happen to them. I've seen two in 30+ years, both several years ago.
A chainfire can happen from either end of the cylinder - all it takes is one spark, regardless of which end it 'leaks' into. Which is more likely is a matter of debate, but it doesn't really matter - the idea is to pay attention to both ends to keep the chance minimal.
A properly sized ball which is almost perfectly round is the best protection from a spark entering via the chamber mouth. Obviously the shaved ring of lead is the indication that goal is achieved. Do you still need a wad under the ball or grease over the chamber mouth. No, but either of those two things provide some extra protection and have the added benefit of keeping the fouling soft (assuming a lubed wad is used), making jamming less likely and cleaning easier. So do it anyway.
By the way, there are plenty of round balls that aren't very round out there - they can easily leave a tiny gap that a spark will find if it gets a chance, and you'll have a hard time seeing the imperfection with the naked eye. If you're sure every ball you have is close to round you can probably afford to skip the wad/grease thing, but then you'll have to deal with fouling...it ain't worth it.
As for the nipple end - my personal feeling is that this is where most chainfires originate, but that's of little consequence. Loose caps are the biggest culprit, either falling off at the wrong time (during initial recoil as the flame face is spreading) or leaving a gap that the flame can find. The battle to find a good fitting cap is never ending - the nipple cap interface is complex (three dimensional with close tolerances and small parts) with no interface specification to guide different manufacturers. Cap makers don't make nipples and nipple manufacturers don't make caps. A formula for disaster, which is demonstrated every time we try to answer the question, "What caps fit on my .39 cal Deluxe Firespitter?" Come to think of it, it's probably a miracle we don't have more chainfires.
Anyway, ya pays yer money and ya takes yer choice, pilgrim. Pay attention to the details and you'll probably go through life thinking chainfires are a myth...
A chainfire can happen from either end of the cylinder - all it takes is one spark, regardless of which end it 'leaks' into. Which is more likely is a matter of debate, but it doesn't really matter - the idea is to pay attention to both ends to keep the chance minimal.
A properly sized ball which is almost perfectly round is the best protection from a spark entering via the chamber mouth. Obviously the shaved ring of lead is the indication that goal is achieved. Do you still need a wad under the ball or grease over the chamber mouth. No, but either of those two things provide some extra protection and have the added benefit of keeping the fouling soft (assuming a lubed wad is used), making jamming less likely and cleaning easier. So do it anyway.
By the way, there are plenty of round balls that aren't very round out there - they can easily leave a tiny gap that a spark will find if it gets a chance, and you'll have a hard time seeing the imperfection with the naked eye. If you're sure every ball you have is close to round you can probably afford to skip the wad/grease thing, but then you'll have to deal with fouling...it ain't worth it.
As for the nipple end - my personal feeling is that this is where most chainfires originate, but that's of little consequence. Loose caps are the biggest culprit, either falling off at the wrong time (during initial recoil as the flame face is spreading) or leaving a gap that the flame can find. The battle to find a good fitting cap is never ending - the nipple cap interface is complex (three dimensional with close tolerances and small parts) with no interface specification to guide different manufacturers. Cap makers don't make nipples and nipple manufacturers don't make caps. A formula for disaster, which is demonstrated every time we try to answer the question, "What caps fit on my .39 cal Deluxe Firespitter?" Come to think of it, it's probably a miracle we don't have more chainfires.
Anyway, ya pays yer money and ya takes yer choice, pilgrim. Pay attention to the details and you'll probably go through life thinking chainfires are a myth...
longfowler
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my walker chain fired on me several times when I first got it. very impressive recoil & sound, like an auto pistol doubling! never had the cylinder lined up with the rammer go off (fortunatly) but balls from the other 4 cylinders would ricochet out to the sides and we never found where they went... good reason to always stand BEHIND some else shooting! I found out it was caused by excessive fore & aft play in the cylinder, combined with long nipples hitting the recoil shield when the gun was fired. I got a new wedge, filed the face of the recoil sheild down & put new nipples on it, and never had another problem.
Kevin W. We had a really long discussion on this maybe a year ago and it is probably in the archives. Some really good stuff came out of that talk. To review, it was found that in MOST cases the chain firing occurred on the first batch of the day shots, in other words, you load up an empty gun, fire the first six rounds and that's when a lot of the chain firing occurred. It was less common after a few cylinders of rounds had been fired.
One guy loaded powder and wads, no bullets, and QUICKLY passed a propane torch over uncapped nipples, trying to create the same situation as hot gases over a nipple where the cap fell off, the cylinders ignited on that fast pass- so it is sure possible for that to cause a chain firing.
Another fellow thought perhaps the recoil moved the balls in some of the other chambers enough to invite hot gases- sure another possibility.
It was also found that lube placed over the balls quickly melted away after a shot or two. In other words if you load powder, ball, crisco, fire three rounds and then look at the end of the still unfired chambers, many times the lube has burned/melted off- not offering any protection. Historically, I think the lube had wax. etc that gave better preformance.
I any event, the general thought- as I recall- was to always fire off caps on the nipples prior to loading to burn off any grease/oil, perhaps the grease/oil caused the caps to fall off. After that load with powder, a lubed wad, and ball. This gave better protection and make sure there is a ring of lead, insuring a tight fit on the ball.
If the caps don't fit properly on the nipples, use different caps or get a new set of nipples.
Wads are PC, Sam Colt had them on his patent for combustible cartridges.
One guy loaded powder and wads, no bullets, and QUICKLY passed a propane torch over uncapped nipples, trying to create the same situation as hot gases over a nipple where the cap fell off, the cylinders ignited on that fast pass- so it is sure possible for that to cause a chain firing.
Another fellow thought perhaps the recoil moved the balls in some of the other chambers enough to invite hot gases- sure another possibility.
It was also found that lube placed over the balls quickly melted away after a shot or two. In other words if you load powder, ball, crisco, fire three rounds and then look at the end of the still unfired chambers, many times the lube has burned/melted off- not offering any protection. Historically, I think the lube had wax. etc that gave better preformance.
I any event, the general thought- as I recall- was to always fire off caps on the nipples prior to loading to burn off any grease/oil, perhaps the grease/oil caused the caps to fall off. After that load with powder, a lubed wad, and ball. This gave better protection and make sure there is a ring of lead, insuring a tight fit on the ball.
If the caps don't fit properly on the nipples, use different caps or get a new set of nipples.
Wads are PC, Sam Colt had them on his patent for combustible cartridges.
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I used to shoot a lot with C&B revolvers. In many years of shooting them, I had two chain fires. Both times I forgot to put grease over the balls. One was a Remington type, the other was a Colt type.
When I was 12 I didn't know squat about shooting a bp revolver and neither did anybody else. I didn't know about lubing balls. I had chain fires galore. Sometimes one or two mostly all six. I don't think the balls have a lot of power behind them if they're not forced through the barrel. I had dozens of chains and no visible damage to the 58 Remmy. The chains didn't stop till I started putting a drop of 3n1 oil on top of the balls. The nipples were sized for #9 caps and all I could find were #11. Sometimes one or two jumped off under recoil sometimes all of them did. Regardless of how many caps were left on the nipples I never had another chain fire with that gun as long as I lubed the balls. I still have it and not long ago I loaded it up with 40 grs. of powder and fired each chamber without caps on any of the other loaded chambers to see if it would chain fire. it didn't
IMHO, the main cause is indeed ignition from the front. When I first started shooting C&B, I didn't know about lubing, and I had to dig part of a ball out of my leg after it split after hitting the wedge. Some other observations.
Lead is very malleable, so when the ball is shaved going into the chamber, the fit is exact, but not necessarily tight, so a high pressure flame can easily sneak past.
The old guns had slightly tapered cylinders, so the fit of the ball was actually a lot tighter than it is in modern repros with straight cylinders. That might be why the old guns may have not needed lube to prevent chain fires.
It takes very little to effect a complete seal - even a drop of oil is enough, as was mentioned earlier. After the chamber has been fired, the gunk will build up a little behind the ball as it is loaded and give some additional sealing, which explains why chain fires are more common with a newly cleaned gun.
Just a few thoughts...
Lead is very malleable, so when the ball is shaved going into the chamber, the fit is exact, but not necessarily tight, so a high pressure flame can easily sneak past.
The old guns had slightly tapered cylinders, so the fit of the ball was actually a lot tighter than it is in modern repros with straight cylinders. That might be why the old guns may have not needed lube to prevent chain fires.
It takes very little to effect a complete seal - even a drop of oil is enough, as was mentioned earlier. After the chamber has been fired, the gunk will build up a little behind the ball as it is loaded and give some additional sealing, which explains why chain fires are more common with a newly cleaned gun.
Just a few thoughts...
Russ T Frizzen
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If you use the proper size ball (one that gives you a nice even ring of lead shaved off when the ball is seated) you will have sealed the front of the cylinder tightly and this will keep the cylinder flash out of adjacent chambers. A little lube at the chamber mouth will keep fouling soft. Around the back, proper sized caps firmly seated on the cones will keep the cap flash from setting off adjacent cylinders. This has worked well for me for over forty years now. Careful loading with correct components is the best safety measure that I know of.
Dave Rosenthal
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Ouch!!
Our League always uses wonder-wads and correctly sized balls. We have a 10 person relay, and sometimes more than that many folks want to shoot, which means we run a second relay for the pistols & revolvers. FWIW many, many years ago one guy decided not to use the wads in one cylinder's worth of his revolver...he had a chain fire! That was the last time our entire club had a chain fire! Wads are mandatory and we all bring extra to share if one of us forgets ours or runs out of them! :thumbsup:
Dave
Our League always uses wonder-wads and correctly sized balls. We have a 10 person relay, and sometimes more than that many folks want to shoot, which means we run a second relay for the pistols & revolvers. FWIW many, many years ago one guy decided not to use the wads in one cylinder's worth of his revolver...he had a chain fire! That was the last time our entire club had a chain fire! Wads are mandatory and we all bring extra to share if one of us forgets ours or runs out of them! :thumbsup:
Dave
DOUBLEDEUCE 1
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I have been shooting black powder for almost forty-five years. I used to shoot colt revolvers quite a lot, and would compete in monthly black powder shoots that included long guns and hand guns. I can tell you for sure, a chain firing revolver is a thing of terrifying beauty to behold. I have seen only a few. The shooter failed to seal the mouth of the chambers with lube after being cautioned to do so. Those same shooters used under sized balls because they were easier to load. Fast lessons were learned. I have been a firearms instructor for over thirty-two years. I have fired multiple rounds from my revolvers at night, or watched as black powder revolvers were being fired. I can tell you the amount of flame coming from the front of the chamber would almost make the gates of hell pale in comparison. I have doubts whether a spark would get in around a cap and ignite the charged chamber, or the shock of recoil would set off the cap. Think about all the times you might have shaken your cap tin to see how many might still be inside, or tossed a loaded capper onto the shooting bench. In my experience, there have been no detonations from doing that. And think of the weak main springs that fail to detonate caps. If the caps are loose, give them a pinch to snug them up on the nipple. My money for a chain fire is on the flame from the front of the chamber and not the rear.
Russ T Frizzen
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When the correct size ball is seated into the chamber, and a nice even ring of lead is sheared off, what has happened is that the ball has been swedged down in diameter to fit the chamber and a shank has been formed on the ball. A seal is formed by the shank and unless the lead is melted by the gap flash--and that is most unlikely--no flame can reach the powder and cause a chainfire. Sam Colt didn't tell users to use wads or even lube as part of the loading process and he ought to have known what he was doing. Caps on the other hand can fall off and often must be pinched to fit. Properly fitted caps stay where they belong and do not allow the flash from an adjacent chamber to light off other chambers. A properly loaded revolver will not chain fire and one loaded with undersized balls or poorly fitting caps can and most likely will. Loading an undersized ball because it is easier simply makes a man a strong candidate for the Darwin Award.
GreyWhiskers
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A gunsmith buddy of mine didn't believe that a crossfire could happen if oversize lead balls were loaded into the cylinders and they shaved a nice ring off. He didn't use a wad or lube. His 2nd shot crossfired! :shocked2: GW
Russ T Frizzen
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And were his caps the correct size? Did he have to pinch them to keep them on the cones? Did any of them fall off? How oversize were the balls? There is NO way that the gap flash can get by a PROPERLY fitting ball. And if a chamber sealed with a swedge fitted ball is prone to a chain fire then I seriously doubt that a dab of grease or a wad will stop a high temperature flame front.
Russ T Frizzen
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Right. You don't mention what diameter ball you use, but something is really wrong with this picture. Either the laws of physics are in abeyance in your neighborhood or you have oval chambers or Lord knows what. If you are shaving nice even lead rings when you seat the balls then magic is afoot here. All I can say is that I've been shooting C&B revolvers since I was eleven and I have fired thousands of rounds and I have yet to have a chain fire. I'll stick with my loading methods and my properly sized components and not worry about chainfires. And if I were you I'd be real careful about firing a revolver with out capping all the charged chambers--new hands are hard to come by! But if you are into new experiences, this is one you'll long remember....
This debate is silly.
The argument, "I did it this way and I've never had a problem." doesn't mean you never will - it's a post hoc ergo proctor hoc logical fallacy.
The fact is that a chain fire CAN happen from either end of the cylinder IF one does not properly prepare the gun. Notice no reference to a prediction here - I didn't say it WILL happen.
We all know the techniques: proper fitting caps AND proper fitting bullets. You also need nipples with round ends and cylinder chambers that are not tapered or out of round.
The argument, "I did it this way and I've never had a problem." doesn't mean you never will - it's a post hoc ergo proctor hoc logical fallacy.
The fact is that a chain fire CAN happen from either end of the cylinder IF one does not properly prepare the gun. Notice no reference to a prediction here - I didn't say it WILL happen.
We all know the techniques: proper fitting caps AND proper fitting bullets. You also need nipples with round ends and cylinder chambers that are not tapered or out of round.
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