Change in group

[Gotspark]

At 50yds I have a very tight group,x and tens. When I shot at 75yds things opened up. 5 in a 6" circle w/ 1 in the 3"circle and 4 in a 6" circle and two in an 8" circle.More or less all around it. Would things tighten up if you increased the charge amount and if so will it not mess with the shorter shots. :idunno: I'm shooting 65grains right now 50 cal.flintlock. I used the same kind of patch w/ the same amount of lube, all balls were within 1 grain of each other in weight.All shots were from the bench.Thanks

 

[ebiggs1]

All my groups open up, as the distance gets farther. But that is me not the gun. All my flintlocks shoot better than I can. I have come to realize that”¦”¦”¦”¦ slowly.

 

[Gotspark]

I wondering about that myself but I was kinda hoping that 25yds more from a bench would not make that much of a difference in how things grouped.

 

[Maven]

Gotspark, 2 questions: Are you using wind flags? Is your vision as acute at 75 yds. as it is at 50? The reason I mention this is because I had a similar experience the other day with my .45-70 at 50 yds. v 100. (The rifle is a Marlin #336 using a weighed cast bullet + 70 grs. FFg, compressed). Dispersion was greater than I expected at the longer range and now I wish I had brought my wind flags* with me.


*30" of surveyor's tape stapled to a 7/16" dowel

 

At 50yds I have a very tight group,x and tens. When I shot at 75yds things opened up.

Generally speaking, the farther away the target is, the larger the group.

Have you shot other guns before, or is this your first firearm?

 

[Gotspark]

I have shot other rifles before mostly a 30/30 lever action w/ iron sites. This is my first flintlock and the 6th time I've shot it.Everything seems so different with flintlocks compared to other guns though.And I've never done any reloading,being able to adjust the charge kinda seems like reloading in a way.

 

[mr.flintlock]

I assume you are shooting a patched round ball.A round ball like any other projectile needs a certain amount of revolutions per second to stabilize in flight. Round balls lose velocity more rapidly than elongated projectiles. As the bullet loses velocity at longer ranges it also loses rps and can become a little unstable. Try a little more powder and see if your groups tighten at 75 yards. Also, as others have mentioned , human error and wind can can have drastic efects at longer ranges.

 

[D. Bowman]

Something I learned from black powder benchrest shooters,When a PRB transitions from supersonic to subsonic the flight becomes eratic. With the light charge you are shooting this may be what is happening. I would bump the charge up to 75 or 80 grains. I bet your groups will tighten up.

 

[Gotspark]

I'm going to try to get out in the morning and try that. This is what I was thinking as well but with the limited first hand knowledge that I have, kinda feel like I'm guessing. Being able to ask people that have been there and done that is really nice. Thanks.

 

[paulvallandigham]

As the range to the target increases, the amount of the target covered by your front sight APPEARS to also increase. Instead of looking at the front sight as a whole, You have to learn to concentrate on an IMAGINED line down the middle of the front sight, and put that line at your POA.

This is a "trick" that long range pistol and revolver shooters learned to do with their single action, and double action revolver sights. I you read "Sixguns", "Hell, I Was There", by the late Elmer Keith, and " Fast and Fancy Pistol Shooting, by the late Ed McGivern, you will learn about these techniques. The Skills are still used by Metallic Silhouette shooters shooting handguns with open sights in that sport.

Most Factory front sights on MLers will cover an 8" bullseye at 100 yds. You can replace them with Thinner front sights. However, if you practice using a 6 o'clock hold( POA), so that the bullseye is Above the top edge of your front sight, You can learn to imagine that thin line down the middle of the front sight and hit very small targets at longer ranges, weather conditions allowing. :thumbsup:

 

[BrownBear]

I'm betting the increase is happening behind the gun, and that an increase in charge just isn't going to improve it. There's just not all that much velocity drop between 50 and 75.

But.....

The sum total of little variations in technique really start to mount as distance stretches. In my own case, I had to really concentrate more on my followthrough once I moved past 50. Just concentrating on that brought my groups back down very close to what I was shooting at 50. When I went from 50 to 100 the difference was really apparent, and in fact I was shooting at 75 because I was so embarrassed by what I was seeing at 100. Once I got my followthrough in order, groups were decent even at 100. Bonus points- your groups at 25 and 50 will tighten right along with those further out.

 

[Gotspark]

I thought about this a lot last night,you never really want to believe something like this is your own fault. It's much easier to have something to blame like the devise,or something about it.With a rifle I didn't think this small an increase in distance would do all this.One of the things I almost forgot is take your time.Toomuch36 showed me this and I had not thought about that in my rush in wanting things right at this distance.I really have not shot enough balls at this distance to change anything at this point. I know they are two different things but in my mind in archery just ten yards means a lot. From 30 to 40 yds,or 40-50yds your form can go to manure,so when looking at it in that perspective I see that perhaps what needs looked at first is me. Talking back and forth like this is a lot like brainstorming we're just not in the same room, all the different ideas brings things up in my mind that I had not occurred to me until now.Thanks... :hatsoff:

 

[Pete G]

Try putting a shade over your sights. It will make them appear much more crisp. 1-1/2" black plastic pipe from the plumbing section at Home Depot works well.

Incidentally, a round ball does not destabalize at longer range like a bullet does, even if the revolutions per second did fall off, which they do not. A round ball has no horizontal axis, therefore it has no yaw.

 

[Gotspark]

It has been determined that the problem was all me.Today at 75 yds I shot 3 tens and two just outside the 3" circle which I know why, I felt it go wrong.At 100yds got 1 ten 1 nine two just outside and one really bad one at the edge of the paper,that I thought that felt ok but I must have done something and just didn't notice.I did not have time to go to a larger load but will next time,as some have said I can expect my groups to tighten up? And is 65grains to light a load for deer? I would imagine at some point or distance it should be heavier? I don't mind taking the time to experiment at the range but do not wish to experiment on a animals. :shake: I noticed that the balls outside the three inch circle were in the same # circle as the other.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Accuracy is far more important than MV when hunting, when it comes to choosing an effective deer load for your gun. 65 grains of FFg is going to generate enough energy to penetrate a deer at 100 yds, broadside. Most deer are killed at less than half that distance.

I have a .50 cal. rifle with a 39 inch barrel. I am shooting 75 grains of FFg only because that load seems to be more Accurate out at 100 yds. I purposely choose NOT to shoot at game out that far, when I Hunt, but that is a personal decision of my own, and has nothing to do with whether the gun can kill a deer at that distance.

My decision might be different if I had a range out my back door, which allowed me to practice shooting 100 yd. targets and further daily. But, like most of us, I don't that that facility available. I know my limitations, and simply choose not to extend the yardage at which I will shoot deer beyond where I belief I can place a killing shot 99% of the time.

The 75 grains of powder shoots a bit flatter at 100 yds, than the 65 grains charge in my gun, and is just as accurate when I compared the two.

I don't know the length of your barrel. In a .50 caliber gun it is going to have some relevance in determining how much powder you can shoot. My 39 inch barrel will burn 83 grains effectively. When I compared 75 and 80 grains loads at 100 yds, I could not find any measurable difference in accuracy, but I did have more felt recoil in the higher load. I know that recoil does adversely affect my ability to place my ball accurately, so I chose to stick with the 75 grain charge.

I hope this helps guide you in your final decision.

 

[hanshi]

I feel your pain. It does appear, though, that you have made a breakthrough. I can usually do okay up to about 75 yards but 100 yards is still a joke. I'm doing more practice at 100 but my eyes limit my progress. Odd because I've killed two deer at that distance and slightly farther.

 

[Gotspark]

I'm shooting a 50cal T/C Hawkens w/ 28" barrel.The powder I'm using is 65grains of goex 3f.Is there a big difference between 2f and 3f? If so what would that be? As far as your example at 100yds? Or even at 75? The imagined line to the poi worked well for me, thanks Paul.Funny how little things like that can make a difference in things. Hanshi, the breakthrough you speak of is true.I rushed things the first time I shot at 75yds, and didn't pay attention to what I or the flint was doing. This time I took things slow payed attention and it showed.

 

[Tom Compton]

Incidentally, a round ball does not destabalize at longer range like a bullet does, even if the revolutions per second did fall off, which they do not. A round ball has no horizontal axis, therefore it has no yaw.

Neither a round ball or elongated projectile loose an appreciable rate of spin over the time of flight of a normal shot.

It is not the rate of spin but the inflight velocity that is lost that causes a disturbance. When a projectile of any type moves from supersonic to subsonic there is a lot of turbulance that affects the flight. To be accurate at longer distances the projectile must either begin flight subsonic or maintain velocity above supersonic at least to the target. That is why the group of a load that is otherwise accurate at 50 or even 75 yards can expand exponentially at longer distances - it goes subsonic.

In this case the shooter has redoubled his efforts on shooting form and attention to detail and determined the gun and load are accurate at 100 yards when he does his part. I believe the 65 gr load in a 28" barreled .50 cal could be subsonic at, near or before 100 yards. With benefit of a chronographed 10 round average MV the 100 yard remaining velocity can be calculated very accurately.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Yes, there is a huge difference between using FFFg and FFg powder. The smaller granular sized powder burns much HOTTER, and produces both higher pressure, and faster velocities= approx. 10% faster at the Muzzle. All that extra velocity is long gone out at 75 yds, and further, so you are left with extra pressure, and extra recoil.

I will continue to tell all new shooters working up loads for a given rifle to Try BOTH powders in your gun. Some guns like one powder better than the other. To be fair in how you test different powder, please use a chronograph when doing the tests. Otherwise you are comparing apples to oranges, and you won't really know which powder is more accurate in your gun.

For Example, My .50 caliber rifle began life as a Percussion Action rifle. I ended up using FFFg powder in the gun in that form. But, when I switched the gun to a flintlock, I again re-tested my load using both powder sizes. I was Shocked to find that the barrel preferred FFg in its flintlock form.

I consulted more experienced BP shooters at the club, had them shoot test groups with each powder, over my chronograph, and everyone got the same result. We were all puzzled. I have my own theory on what makes the difference, but don't have the equipment to do an adequate test. I even discussed the issue with Larry Pletcher a couple of years back when we met at Friendship, and he doesn't know how to test the issue, with the equipment he " borrows", either. /And, I called Dutch Schoultz about the matter, and Dutch had seen such a phenomena, but also didn't know the reason for it, or how to test it.

So, test both Powder sizes. If you buy Graf, or Schutzen or Kik, or some other brand of BP, or buy some of the Expensive Swiss powder, test your gun with these other powders over a chronograph, too. You will learn far more about the powder than anything you can learn from shooting targets on a given day. I am using Goex Brand BP because its made in America, and I think its in our National interest to have a U.S. maker of powder. I have nothing against the other brands of powder, BTW. I just prefer to keep jobs here in America.

 

[Gotspark]

Thanks for all the good info guys.Appreciate it :hatsoff: