Charles Villwock Percussion Target Rifle Toledo Ohio 1879

[Digger459]

A friend of mine inherited this rifle from his Dad. He asked me to put it in shooting order. I've been working on getting the rust and dirt out of the barrel, and have a trigger issue to resolve. Curious if anyone else has experience with this maker/type of rifle? The barrel is a Remington, about .370 across the lands and .390 across the grooves. Would appreciate advice on starting load - ball diameter/powder charge - and any information about the maker or the types of matches a rifle like this might have been used for. Sorry for the horrible photography - any help much appreciated!

 

[Bad Karma]

You can probably tightly patch a .38 caliber pistol cleaning Jag, mount it on a rod and use it to determine the rate of twist. That will tell you if it’s designed for bullets or round ball. If It’s a slower twist, less than say 1 turn in 30” or so, you might start with .360” balls, (track of the wolf sells them.) if it’s faster twist you’re probably gonna have to cast projectiles for the rifle and you’d need to source a bullet mold which would cast a .370” or so bullet. I suspect it will be a round ball shooter and I’d start with 40 grains of 3f Swiss powder. Expect fine accuracy from that old rifle. It’s a beautiful piece.

Also, it’s got a set trigger, push the trigger forward to set it and then trigger pull is reduced to ounces. Some require the hammer to be cocked before the trigger can be set. Others require you to set the trigger before you cock the hammer.

VILLWOCK, Charles— Toledo, Ohio, active about 1873-82.
Villwock, Charles—Riflemaker of Toledo, Ohio. Active from i860 or before. Member of the firm of Villwock & Orth, 1874-75. Employing three hands in 1876 and active until 1882.

There are a number of people on the site who are very knowledgeable about these old rifles, expect to hear from them presently.

 

[wiscoaster]

Beautiful rifle. Unique trigger guard.

 

[Digger459]

Thanks very much sir! Very helpful. The twist looks pretty slow, so I'll try round balls as you suggest. The trigger is not functioning properly - if anyone has experience with triggers like this, I can explain what's going on and perhaps get some advice on what to do. Thanks again!

 

[wiscoaster]

....The trigger is not functioning properly - if anyone has experience with triggers like this, I can explain what's going on and perhaps get some advice on what to do. ...

Your trigger adjustment screw looks like it's screwed really far out. Have you tried screwing it back in? I think the trigger needs to be "set" in order for the adjustment screw to have effect.
That being suggested, why don't you explain what's going on, because there are plenty of members here who know a whole lot about the subject that can help you to diagnose much better than I.

 

[Phil Coffins]

You have a schuetzen rifle. It was an offhand rifle fired at a target about 200 yards to 200 m. I would advise you find some one to help you with the rifle before attempting any adjusting.
I see yours has an added muzzle rest for bench rest shooting.

 

[The Crisco Kid]

The muzzle appears to be turned round which could indicate that it was equipped with a false muzzle for starting conical bullets.

 

[Digger459]

Sure thing. As it works now, when all is assembled and the hammer cocked, pulling back on the trigger has no effect, except that you can feel a click at the end. But if you push forward on the trigger from behind, it trips the sear every time. The sear is positioned approximately over the black dot in the above photo.

Pushing the trigger forward makes it look like this - so the top front of the trigger is tripping the sear.

Ahead of the trigger is a bar that rotates upward when you pull the trigger to the rear - it pivots just in front of the trigger at the top of the assembly. Here is a video:

I'm not sure how this is supposed to work - I have some guesses, but I'd be grateful if someone with experience with triggers like this could advise me as to the best course of action.

Thanks to all -

 

[wiscoaster]

Pushing forward on the trigger is supposed to "set" it so it fires under the lightest pressure. Proper behavior for this trigger is that (1) when not "set", pulling it back should release the cock with some minimal travel and nominal pressure to fire; (2) pushing forward should result in a click and the trigger entering "set" state (with no effect on the cock), and then (3) after it's "set" barely touching the trigger should release the cock to fire. If this is what it does when it's disassembled and removed from the stock (disregarding the part about the cock) then your problem is most likely the trigger group isn't properly positioned with respect to the lock.

I'm guessing, and just guessing, based on your description and on my own experience troubleshooting a double-set trigger (ie different mechanism), that your trigger group is probably too close to the lock. Some would suggest filing some off the top of the trigger bar, but that's a permanent solution, so don't do it unless you're sure that's what the problem is.

I'd suggest troubleshooting by shimming the trigger group with a couple small washers under the trigger plate to move it farther away from the lock, then reassembling and see if your problem is solved. If that's the case, then filing just the end of the bar that moves up when the trigger is pushed forward might be the appropriate fix.

And I'm hoping, if I'm wrong, someone with more experience on single-set triggers will jump in here and correct me. So, just have patience and let's see what develops.

 

[Digger459]

Thanks kindly for the quick reply. Unfortunately it does not behave that way out of the rifle - pushing forward on the trigger does not set it.

 

[waksupi]

I wouldn't do anything to the trigger until I found someone who knows what they are doing. Check your area for schuetzen competitors, there is someone that knows them inside out, no doubt.

I would bet you could hook up with an expert on this forum;

https://forum.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl

 

[wiscoaster]

I think maybe a gunsmith familiar with muzzleloader black powder locks and single-set trigger groups is called for. And don't automatically assume any gunsmith is.

 

[IanH]

It's a double-set mechanism and the front trigger has been broken off flush with the plate.

 

[wiscoaster]

It's a double-set mechanism and the front trigger has been broken off flush with the plate.

Ah ha!! Here's a guy not only knows what he's talking about, but has very sharp vision indeed. Well done!!

I concur. I had to zoom way in on a spot just forward of the extended adjusting screw, but jagged metal in a slot can be seen. And further, looking at the OP pics that show the trigger guard, it's obvious there should be another trigger in that empty space.

Sorry, OP.

 

[OldSmoky1967]

A friend of mine inherited this rifle from his Dad. He asked me to put it in shooting order. I've been working on getting the rust and dirt out of the barrel, and have a trigger issue to resolve. Curious if anyone else has experience with this maker/type of rifle? The barrel is a Remington, about .370 across the lands and .390 across the grooves. Would appreciate advice on starting load - ball diameter/powder charge - and any information about the maker or the types of matches a rifle like this might have been used for. Sorry for the horrible photography - any help much appreciated!View attachment 272486View attachment 272487

 

[OldSmoky1967]

Heavy barreled target rifle. Inspired by the German Schutzen rifles.

 

[stephenprops1]

Thanks very much sir! Very helpful. The twist looks pretty slow, so I'll try round balls as you suggest. The trigger is not functioning properly - if anyone has experience with triggers like this, I can explain what's going on and perhaps get some advice on what to do. Thanks again!View attachment 272710

I don't know anything about this trigger, but I wanted to share an experience I had years ago. I was restoring an old percussion rifle. The trigger did not work. I could not determine the problem. I took the trigger assembly totally apart, photographing each step. When I was done, I cleaned the parts, stripped and reblued them. I then reassembled the trigger assembly and lo-and-behold it worked fine.