Chokes or no Chokes for Turkey Hunting

[beardedhorse]

Bullshot, we are talking about smoothbores not rifles. Where did you get your information on the Ashley flintlock being .69 caliber and made by Jake for 200 yard shots? Sam Hawken late in his life talked about building a "super Hawken" for William Ashley, possibly .66 caliber. There is no existing example of it so a lot of people are making assumptions of it's make up and ignition system.. Ashley needed a longer range rifle to shoot back at Arikaras firing down on his keelboats. Elsewhere there is a nice chat about a jug choked Kibler and a dozen or more pattern sheets, Most readers agreed that #10 load worked best. Thought is was a .58 caliber smooth bore (smaller than 20 gauge).

 

[bullshot]

Bullshot, we are talking about smoothbores not rifles. Where did you get your information on the Ashley flintlock being .69 caliber and made by Jake for 200 yard shots? Sam Hawken late in his life talked about building a "super Hawken" for William Ashley, possibly .66 caliber. There is no existing example of it so a lot of people are making assumptions of it's make up and ignition system.. Ashley needed a longer range rifle to shoot back at Arikaras firing down on his keelboats. Elsewhere there is a nice chat about a jug choked Kibler and a dozen or more pattern sheets, Most readers agreed that #10 load worked best. Thought is was a .58 caliber smooth bore (smaller than 20 gauge).

Give me break! I was trying to pay the gentleman a compliment on his fine and POWERFUL English style fowler. Its comparison to the Ashley Hawken was that both guns were more powerful that guns more typical of the period. The Ashley Flint Rifle made by Sam and Jake Hawken is not entirely a mystery though its whereabouts is not public information. That assumes it still exists. If interested, check out Bob Woodfill's super book on Hawken rifles. Bob used the information from an interview with Sam Hawken to build a hypothetical Ashley Flint Hawken. I for one think Bob made a very strong case for the gun he built.

 

[jake3008]

Thanks for all the replies guys! This is some really great information and helps me out a lot!
-bullshot That’s an awesome quote from Klaus. I love it.

 

[7of7]

What is a jug choke?

 

[Hermit Tim]

Can't offer any info about screw in chokes, as I've never used one. My New Englander has the cylinder bore, as do all of my BP smoothies. I shoot matched charges of 2f and shot. Using sheep's wool for over powder and over shot. Getting really good groups around 30 yards with that combo. Good luck with whatever you choose.

 

[Zutt-man]

Great Caesar's ghost, what a gorgeous Kibler you have there! The composition, lighting and fine detail of the first photo are genius.

Much appreciated! I tried capture some late sun light at sunset, but doing so without another person or tripod was difficult. Catching the harvest on my phone was pretty cool, though

 

[Mike in FL]

a properly jug choked muzzle loader will shoot tighter patterns than a modern gun. I have built guns that will take turks at 50 yards. And you can still shoot round ball out of them. I've been doing g this stuff for three decades.

Against my better judgement I will make a comment! First off, I am not a turkey hunter though I killed ONE with a 16 ga Remington 870. However, I have caused several to be killed with a cylinder bore flintlock fowler. I put together a Chamber's fowler kit with 46" (?). My very good friend in TN asked my opinion on a flintlock smoothbore for killing turkeys. I boxed up the fowler, took it to PO ("yes sir, the firing pin is removed.") I shipped it to Joe as a gift. He proceeded to kill a 'grand slam', "the 4 subspecies: Eastern, Rio Grande, Merriam's and Osceola". I forget the details but they are recorded in Muzzle Blasts in 4 articles "Evolution of a Turkey Hunter". It was a challenge to be sure. I guess my point is, what does one want to accomplish with a 'primitive' weapon? Do you want to emulate the early days (flint and cylinder bore) or does one want simply another excuse to go hunting (Inline full choke). My old BPCR spotter Klaus frequently liked to say "It's the Indian, not the arrow". Will try and post some photos later.....I am late for a doctor's appointment.

Firing pin?

 

[Thingamajiggy]

What is a jug choke?

I'll take a stab at it. A jug choke is a cylinder bore where as the starting bore is the same as the ending bore but there a slight enlargement of the bore right before the muzzle. This slight expansion acts like a choke, it allows the shot pattern to expand slightly then constricts it back to the bore of the gun upon exiting the muzzle. Helps to tighten loose shot while still allowing the effective use of patched balls. Hope this helps.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I have no where the experience with smoothies as some others here. But, FWIW, I have had three smooth ml guns. One a Pedersoli Brown Bess, a Ped. SxS and a fowler. BB was an 11 ga., SxS 14 ga. with one choked barrel and one honed out to cylinder bore. Fowler was a 20 ga. with cylinder bore. Of the four barrels the three cylinder (no choke) barrels all gave excellent patterns. The one choked was a mess on target. For turkeys, which you have to call in close, I suggest a cylinder bore for the best killer.

 

[stikshooter]

Hello,
I'm looking into getting a new black powder shotgun to try and hunt a turkey with it probably next year. I have looked through several different ones and have decided I really like the TC New Englander with the 12ga barrel. The problem I'm having now is deciding whether or not to get one with the screw in chokes or to get one with fixed chokes. From reading up it looks like the fixed choke barrels are typically cylinder bore. My first instinct was to get one with the chokes as in theory a full choke would help with the pattern a lot but from reading a few of the older posts on this site and others it seems as though the screw in chokes (especially a full) could be more hassle than there worth as you have to remove the choke every time you are going to load and the threading in the barrel for the chokes can leave it more vulnerable to rust forming in there and possibly locking the choke in because of it if its not cleaned well enough. Some people had said that even with a cylinder bore you can still get good patterns out to about 25 yards as long as you develop a good load which may be more of a factor in your spread than any choke is going to help with. So my question is are the screw in chokes really worth it or can I get by with a fixed cylinder bore.
Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated, Thanks.

My Pedersoli 12ga has screw in chokes and no hassle what so ever ,instead of cards/hard wads I use a combination of Dry Dura Felt wad/wads over powder depending on load and lubed again depending on load over shot ,like I said no hassle except for the the turkey ! /Ed

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I have no where the experience with smoothies as some others here. But, FWIW, I have had three smooth ml guns. One a Pedersoli Brown Bess, a Ped. SxS and a fowler. BB was an 11 ga., SxS 14 ga. with one choked barrel and one honed out to cylinder bore. Fowler was a 20 ga. with cylinder bore. Of the four barrels the three cylinder (no choke) barrels all gave excellent patterns. The one choked was a mess on target. For turkeys, which you have to call in close, I suggest a cylinder bore for the best killer.

Was it a jug choke or a restriction? All jug chokes are not created equal. You have to know how it's done to get excellent results.

 

[harleysboss]

Was it a jug choke or a restriction? All jug chokes are not created equal. You have to know how it's done to get excellent results.

I’m going to be in the market for a correct jug choke full for a 58cal/24 ga. Do you provide this service or recommend any one in particular? I’ve used Caywood in the past but I don’t see that he goes smaller than 20ga.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I’m going to be in the market for a correct jug choke full for a 58cal/24 ga. Do you provide this service or recommend any one in particular? I’ve used Caywood in the past but I don’t see that he goes smaller than 20ga.

I don't do stuff like that, I'm just a gunstocker. I used to have a 28 gauge that shot extremely tight patterns. It had a 48" cylinder bore barrel. Have you tried patterning yours yet? It's possible your 24 bore might shoot really tight already. I think my jugger probably retired, I'll have to call him and see. He just lives 12 miles down the road.

 

[harleysboss]

Don't have the barrel yet. Wanted to make sure it was possible to do before making the purchase.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I saw a thread here last week for a contact to do jugs. There were 3 or 4 suggestions of guys that do good work.

 

[harleysboss]

Yep. I’ve read it. Your post made it seem like you either did your own or knew a good smith.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

Yep. I’ve read it. Your post made it seem like you either did your own or knew a good smith.

Yep, I do have a good guy but his health is failing so I need to contact him and see if he is still willing to do it. I don't want to bother him if he's not up to it. He's the only guy I ever had jug for me and I'm leary of any one else's work.

 

[harleysboss]

Yep, I do have a good guy but his health is failing so I need to contact him and see if he is still willing to do it. I don't want to bother him if he's not up to it. He's the only guy I ever had jug for me and I'm leary of any one else's work.

I completely understand. A man's health is far more important than a shotgun choke. I have a contact for another smith that I will be contacting. Thanks

 

[MRW]

I jugged choked my 15ga underhammer Fowler when I had access to the lathe in my HS shop. Just used a boring bar and went back in the barrel a ways took a few cuts and made sure we had a smooth angle back to barrel id I'd say from our pattern test we went from cylinder bore to a very tight improved cyl pattern or a very loose modified I used it to kill a couple turkeys so I'd say it worked ok

 

[TNTraveler]

Does jug choking effect the accuracy of shooting a RB