Clean barrel suggestions?

[skeetabop]

A few months ago i bought a Euroarms 1858 Enfield. It's a great gun to shoot and am going to use it deer hunting this year. My problem is this: My first shot always shoots to the left by 6 - 12 inches depending on the distance (shoots farther to the left the greater the distance). After that she is right on.
I use 85 grains of Pyrodex and 565 grain maxi Hunter bullets.
We go to our blinds before the sun comes up. Shooting a round thru my gun at 4:30 am seems silly. Any suggestions?

 

[Stumpkiller]

Run a lubed patch of whatever you are using up and down the bore before shooting for the first time.

If you are using pre-lubed Maxi-Hunters then run a patch with T/C Bore Butter on it to well grease the bore. Not thick, just well covered.

A dry bore shoots different from a fouled or reloaded bore.

Another help is to add a fiber wad behind any flat based bullet. There is an effect called "peening" of black powder on the flat lead that B.P. cartridge shooters try to avoid. A cardboard disc (punched from a cereal box) or small wad of aluminum foil will do the same, but you have to be consistant whatever you choose.

Are you sure these are Maxi-Hunters? (A T/C registered trademark). 565 grains puts you up in hollow base minie ball territory.

 

[jdstrang]

Failing all else, and knowing your rifle consistantly shoots 6-12 inches left, and further that the heart-lung area of a typical whitetail is 6-12 inches in diameter, you might try holding that first shot 6-12 inches right ! :: :front:

 

[WV_Hillbilly]

skeetabop,

It sounds as though there is a lot of variation in your grouping of shots. 6" - 12" is a wide margin of error. At what range do you shoot these loads? Are you shooting them from a solid bench rest position or off-hand? Sometimes when we shoot off-hand or from an unsteady position, there IS that much variation. Sometimes different people tend to hold the gun in their own particular manner which may pull the point of impact to somewhere different than the point of aim. Doesn't necessarily mean that you are the fault of this, but you need to check any possible causes.

You don't have to use such a heavy weight bullet either. Have you tried shooting patched round balls (there are a couple different diameters that would work, depending on your gun's bore tolerance and the patching material you use). A round ball load in a .58 caliber gun will stop ANY whitetail deer, if it's hit properly.

There are also various conicals that go down to as light as 315gr or so and step on up through almost 600grains. You might try another bullet, as your point of impact (POI) would be different with these other projectiles. 85gr is a pretty stout load with a 565 gr bullet (Are you sure they aren't 560gr though?). You should use a projectile that is affordable enough to allow you lots of practice and also one that is readily avaiable as well.

I don't shoot much over 60gr when using heavyweight slugs like those you are using. That heavier load may be causing the base of the conical bullet to erode--or the skirt of a minie to deform. Try back off to 60gr and using a bullet in the 450gr range if you can find them. I'm sure there are others here besides myself who might have some additional information for you about shooting the Enfield .577/.58 caliber rifles.

The sights on those military style Enfields are calibrated for one certain bullet weight and powder charge weight--which means anything different from that is going to hit a different point of impact (BUT it may be so slight that it doesn't matter). Also, do the rear sights on the gun appear to be in alignment with the centerline of the bore, or do they look skewed to the left (or the front sight skewed to the right)? That can be a problem as well.

Keep us informed of what is going on. I know that the Enfield can do much better what you have described.

Shoot Safely!
WV_Hillbilly

 

[skeetabop]

I target shoot out of my hunting blind. I built a shooting table to rest the gun on and use a pillow under my barrel when shooting. She's pretty steady. I have never tried anything but the Maxi hunter and maybe a ball would work better, but wanted something i could load faster and easier than a ball. I've hunted whitetails for 25 years with a 12 gauge shotgun and i would rather use a heavy slug to knock them down with. I looked at Cabela's and couldn't find a slug less than 500 grains for a 58 caliber. ( you are right, the maxi hunter is 560 grains) Do you know where to find lighter bullets for a 58 caliber?
I have tried Pyrodex loads from 60 to 85 grains and the 85 seems to work the best.
I hunt in Illinois and the regs say: Non-expanding military style full metal jackets cannot be used to harvest deer; soft point or expanding bullets (including copper/copper - alloy rounds designed for hunting) are legal ammo.
Can I use the Maxi-Hunter from Thompson Center?
Thanks for all the input, I have learned so much from your forum. It is a great source of info.

 

[skeetabop]

I forgot, I always shoot 1 cap before i load the gun for the first time.
Again, after I shoot the first shot, that Enfield is right on and very deadly.
I am going to shoot again thursday and will try running a patch with TC Bore Butter down first.
Thanks again for any suggestions.

 

[Rebel]

Yes, the T/C Maxi Hunter would be legal. You might see if Lee makes a .58 cal. REAL bullet. It would be a lighter weight bullet to try.

 

[Slamfire]

If yore season starts soon, just adjust your sight for the first shot, the deer ain't gonna stick around if yore Kentucky windage works out wrong. :front:

 

[roundball]

I forgot, I always shoot 1 cap before i load the gun for the first time.
Again, after I shoot the first shot, that Enfield is right on and very deadly.
I am going to shoot again thursday and will try running a patch with TC Bore Butter down first.
Thanks again for any suggestions.

FWIW, a .58cal/279grn Hornady ball is a powerhouse and will take most anything on the NA continent.

Because I hunt in close tight woods, I zero dead on at 50yds with an easy mid-range powder charge of 100grns Goex 2F...but even at that, the big ball only drops 3" at 100yds...shot two bucks with it last year and the ball blew right through each of them.

The big .58cal round ball is extremely accurate and devastating on deer...has far less recoil than a huge heavy conical...and is far less expensive too...you might give them a try.
:front:

 

[Zonie]

You didn't say how you are cleaning your gun before you put it away.
If you are removing the barrel to clean it, this could be part of the problem.
You might want to go shoot some and then clean the gun like you always do but this time without removing the barrel. Then shoot a few more shots with it to see if the point of impact has shifted.
Cleaning the gun without removing the barrel can be done if you turn the gun upside down and keep it pointed "a little muzzle down" to keep the water out of the stock.

I've noted that if the barrel is removed for cleaning, it seems to take one shot for it to settle back in the next time I use the gun.

If your not removing the barrel for cleaning, I don't know what is causing the first shot to go wide while all of the rest of them are right on the money.

 

[guncobbler]

I had a Thompson Center Renegade in 50 cal that always shot 5 inches higher at 50 yards on the second and following shot. What was funny is that it did the same thing when I had a 56 cal smoothbore barrel on it. I finaly put a 30 inch 50 cal Green Mountain round ball barrel on it and the ist shot to second shot discrepancy went away. Some things are just a mystery. GC

 

[jdstrang]

Skeeta b:

The advice about not removing your barrel to clean it is excellent, for indeed, unless your piece is glass-bedded (and maybe even if it is) it will take a shot or so to find its "groove" again. Then, there's always the matter of returning the tang screw to exact pressure, etc.

If a fast reload for a second shot is a consideration, you might try a very basic CW-style bullet, the Lyman 575213 Old Style minie. It's about as close to original ordinance as you will find, loads slicker than snot with a good and proper lube (I'm real big on MCM), and in scores of Enfields produces two-inch or better groups at 50 yards over 50 grains or so of 2 or 3f black powder. (Guns being as individualistic as those of us who shoot them, your own piece will need a little load development.)

Just remember, you don't have to hurt yourself to kill a deer. Those bullets -- mine weigh about 516 grains -- fired with a moderate powder charge at reasonable ranges will do ALL the work for you! :imo:

 

[Pittsburghunter]

Bucking the trend here I would say a bit more range work is in order. Yes your clean bore will shoot to a different point of aim but the distance you describe is not tollerable. Are you sure all preservation oils are out of the bore before the first shot? Try cleaning and not lubing before the first shot and then test your fouled shots.

Others I know foul their bore with primers use cleaner only and then shoot.

I clean all of the oil out to bare and then load. My ball has lube on it I don't need any in the bore. I also clean often.

The way I figure it I better set my rifle up for what will be my first shot, at a deer. I hunt with a clean bore.

 

[Old40Rod]

The answer is obvious... Find out where your boss hunts, go there and take a fouler shot, then proceed to your hunting area :blah:

 

[NoJacketRequired]

OK, I'll weigh in on this one... I have a similar problem with my Traditions Hawken .50 percussion rifle. First shot from a clean barrel is always low and left, about a foot or so. The load I'm using is PRB under 70gr FFg Triple7 and a CCI #11Mag cap - which produces 3-shot groups very consistantly under 1" at 50yards (not including that pesky first shot). After consulting with the fine folks on this board I tried a few of their suggestions. Here's what I've tried so far:

1) Clean the rifle without disassembly - have discovered that using hot water sprayed through an engine washing gun using compressed air works like a charm. Makes it easy to keep water out of places it shouldn't be (and isn't all that expensive, Walmart sells the engine cleaning gun for under $15). And when the rifle does have to come apart for cleaning, I make sure to goop the heck out of all the metal parts with lube to ensure that, even if water does come near them during cleaning it won't actually get to touch the steel.

2) After a normal cleaning which includes disassembly, swab the dickens out of the bore with a heavily-lubed patch. BTW, the only thing that goes in my bore is bore butter so there's no chance of petroleum contamination, even after a cleaning (unless the gremlins pour oil down the barrel at night when I'm not looking!). I don't even use oil-based lube on the outside of the gun, but rather use a lanolin-based lube called Fluid Film. This is great stuff for protecting metal, sticks like the proverbial you-know-what to a bedsheet!

3) Clean all lube out of the barrel using alcohol-dampened patches, then shoot the gun with a dry bore.

4) All of the variations above, with anything from only one or two caps fired before loading up to 10 caps fired before loading (using the fouling from the caps to kind of 'season' the bore)

The net result I've seen so far is that none of these techniques works very well for bringing that first wild shot back into the group. The best improvement seems to have come from not disassembling the gun, combined with swabbing the heck out of the bore with a heavily lubed patch, followed by snapping off about a half dozen caps. But that first shot was still a good 8" off the point of aim. And darned if the second shot doesn't punch the centre out of the target.

I guess these little conundrums are what keep us scratchin' our heads and pullin' our chins, and enjoying the muzzleloading sport!

 

[Zonie]

"...I guess these little conundrums are what keep us scratchin' our heads and pullin' our chins, and enjoying the muzzleloading sport! "
____________________
Why He11, ye didn't tel usens ye war putting a conundrum on it!
No wondar it ar a shootin whar ye dont exxpekt it to shoot!

Ah'm a thinnen iffen ye jus keep yer conundrum in yer bil fold it mite help ye get off yer furst shot lik God entended. :crackup: :crackup:

 

[canyonman]

You guys could try about 30-40 grain load with just a patch over the top, no bullet. This dirties the barrel, then do whatever it is you do on a second shot and see if that brings the first shot where you want it.

Larry

 

[skeetabop]

Problem solved! I lubed a patch with Bore Butter and ran it in the barrel a few times and it shot 3 inches below my aim at 100 yards on the first shot. It didn't shoot to the left at all. Thank you all for suggestions!
Any one know what black powder load the Confederate snipers used the 1858 Enfield?

 

[marcstephen]

You could try using a 575 Minie Ball with 70 grains of powder. This worked well in my Enfield. This would be the standard round fired during the Civil War. The British Enfield round of the period would also work but I don't know of anyone that sells a mould or pre-made round. :results: :m2c:

VERY IMPORTANT: Lube the grooves and cone!!! I like bore butter, use your favorite "flavor"

 

[cliff mccann]

Sam Fadala in his book,"Blackpowder Book",writes about "dressing the bore". This is the wiping of the bore with a dry patch after loading,but before capping or priming.I took a new rifle to the range today,and shot a number of groups from a cleaned barrel. These groups, at 50 yards,measured 1 3/8" to 1/2" for 3 shots each.But 3 times I forgot to dress the bore,and those 3 times the first shot was about 2" to the left of the group.My cleaning between groups included wiping the bore with bore butter,followed by a dry patch.So,wiping with one more dry patch after loading (but before capping for safety reasons)might cure those first shot flyers.