Colonial Trade Gun from a modern Belgian flintlock

[Rudyard]

So you have seen lots of pictures of trade guns but you can’t see how this Belgian copy doesn’t actually resemble an original? It may resemble an African trade gun, but it doesn’t look anything at all like one made for the American trade. The lock is fine, the barrel is fine, everything else is off, way off.

Why does it need to look like its something sent to or got up in America ? .Its fine as what it is where ever it got marketed. I recently had correspondence with old member ' Poker ' which revealed a very interesting flintlock piece made in Birmingham (UK) most probably for the Women warriors of Dahomey West Africa . They were people too (Pretty useless by some accounts but people ) Explorer Sir Richard Burton had a negative opinion. He thought a group of char ladies from London would have been more fearsome than them .
Regards Rudyard

 

[Tumbledown]

So you have seen lots of pictures of trade guns but you can’t see how this Belgian copy doesn’t actually resemble an original? It may resemble an African trade gun, but it doesn’t look anything at all like one made for the American trade. The lock is fine, the barrel is fine, everything else is off, way off.

There is enough variation to originals, and so few surviving, that I don't think anyone can say with certainty just exactly what one looked like. I wasn't going for an exact copy, but a general style. There are an awful lot of people who think I succeeded. The few outlier opinions are just that.

 

[Tumbledown]

Why does it need to look like its something sent to or got up in America ? .Its fine as what it is where ever it got marketed. I recently had correspondence with old member ' Poker ' which revealed a very interesting flintlock piece made in Birmingham (UK) most probably for the Women warriors of Dahomey West Africa . They were people too (Pretty useless by some accounts but people ) Explorer Sir Richard Burton had a negative opinion. He thought a group of char ladies from London would have been more fearsome than them .
Regards Rudyard

I *did* say I was aiming for an American colonial era.

 

[Clark Badgett]

There is enough variation to originals, and so few surviving, that I don't think anyone can say with certainty just exactly what one looked like. I wasn't going for an exact copy, but a general style. There are an awful lot of people who think I succeeded. The few outlier opinions are just that.

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First off, many of these are not trade guns. Secondly, none of them look like your Belgian. And finally, don’t use kit guns as reference, go buy the reference material that deals with American pattern trade guns that has actual pictures of those guns themselves. Otherwise you merely seeking bias confirmation.

 

[Clark Badgett]

Why does it need to look like its something sent to or got up in America ? .Its fine as what it is where ever it got marketed. I recently had correspondence with old member ' Poker ' which revealed a very interesting flintlock piece made in Birmingham (UK) most probably for the Women warriors of Dahomey West Africa . They were people too (Pretty useless by some accounts but people ) Explorer Sir Richard Burton had a negative opinion. He thought a group of char ladies from London would have been more fearsome than them .
Regards Rudyard

Did you just decide to read only my post and omit the original posting?

 

[Rudyard]

Did you just decide to read only my post and omit the original posting?

I didn't base any of my post on any but the subject . Familiar with the subject I am A plagiarist Ime not .
Regards Rudyard

 

[brazosland]

OP you did great work! But…

Calling that an American Style trade gun that might have been used in the 1750/1770’s here in America is about like calling a Thompson Center a “Hawkin.”

No offense, sir. Really. It’s just that we have to keep the name connected with authenticity as much as possible. Or that T-C will be considered a Hawken before too long.

You have a great looking rescue of a fine looking and serviceable smoothbore firelock…and I bet it will shoot and kill marvelously!

But there are things it certainly is not as well…and those words mean things as well.

I’d let you work on my guns.

 

[Indy Durtdigger]

How far off am I in thinking that if he were to change the trigger guard and bump the time frame up 70 to 100 years he could consider it to be a late styled trade gun (most likely fusil or fowler with that barrel profile)? I'm currently working my way through For Trade and Treaty and I'm sure my untrained eye is missing details but his iteration is close to the last generations of flintlocks those companies had made. They even dropped the serpent side plate on some of them so that isn't even a deal breaker.

For that matter there is reference to Belgium trade rifles early in the book but no description or illustration. And later in the book there are some that are close to his from the mid 1800's.

 

[Clark Badgett]

How far off am I in thinking that if he were to change the trigger guard and bump the time frame up 70 to 100 years he could consider it to be a late styled trade gun (most likely fusil or fowler with that barrel profile)? I'm currently working my way through For Trade and Treaty and I'm sure my untrained eye is missing details but his iteration is close to the last generations of flintlocks those companies had made. They even dropped the serpent side plate on some of them so that isn't even a deal breaker.

For that matter there is reference to Belgium trade rifles early in the book but no description or illustration. And later in the book there are some that are close to his from the mid 1800's.

Like I alluded to. The lock and barrel is fine. If it is to look like an American pattern trade gun, it would need to lose the short land styled side plate, butt plate, rod pipes and the quasi French trigger guard. The comb of the stock would need to be reduced down to almost not there. Then fill in the old inlets and put the proper trade gun style furniture in its place. After that, put the stock on a diet, especially around the lock. Put two pipes back on, of a closer to original style. The entry pipe could be gotten away with but that was an exception rather than a rule.

 

[Tumbledown]

I never said American pattern, which I take to mean made by American smiths.

The comb has been reduced like that of #6, the English export, in the butt tang photo above. The butt plate itself is similar to several shown in that photo, both English and American. Yeah, I could have reduced the area around the lock, but that was more than I wanted to do at the time.

Would I like a better trigger guard and side plate? Sure, but I had to work with what I had and felt filling and reinletting could have looked worse.

 

[mikesto44]

So no one thinks that the guns back then were repurposed from available parts..? Or that a gun was used over several decades. With changes made to it overtime ? Because of repairs it needed..?
I think you did a great job with what you started with.
Well done.

 

[Clark Badgett]

I never said American pattern, which I take to mean made by American smiths.

The comb has been reduced like that of #6, the English export, in the butt tang photo above. The butt plate itself is similar to several shown in that photo, both English and American. Yeah, I could have reduced the area around the lock, but that was more than I wanted to do at the time.

Would I like a better trigger guard and side plate? Sure, but I had to work with what I had and felt filling and reinletting could have looked worse.

You are twisting and turning so much it is rather comical. You wanted a colonial era trade gun carried by a normal person during the F&I and Revolutionary wars. Those were American events. American pattern in context of trade guns is a particular pattern that the English made in accordance with the preferences of the North American Indians, which were very demanding traders. While you did a good job of restoring this Belgian repro to like new status, it is not a North American pattern of English trade gun.

 

[Clark Badgett]

So no one thinks that the guns back then were repurposed from available parts..? Or that a gun was used over several decades. With changes made to it overtime ? Because of repairs it needed..?
I think you did a great job with what you started with.
Well done.

Yes that did happen, just not with English trade guns. Even the American copy followed the English pattern.

 

[Tumbledown]

American pattern in context of trade guns is a particular pattern that the English made in accordance with the preferences of the North American Indians, which were very demanding traders.

Now YOU are being comical. There were some details Native Americans looked for, like the serpent side plate, or certain markings or details they were led to believe were special, but that was simple marketing. Trade guns weren't built exclusively for Native American trade. That's not what a "trade gun" was. The vast majority of trade guns were sold to whites, and were everyday working man's guns, equivalent to a Sears shotgun. Trade goods were mass-produced, no-frills items people needed for everyday living.

You are applying a very narrow and outdated definition.

 

[Rudyard]

I have the' For Trade & treaty ' book Belgium & US makers copied UK made guns Barnet become Burnett ect No real problem with that , well not today ( Imititation was always the sincerest form of flattery) Big expanding market so all go for it .Makes mercantile sense Supply & demand rules .where ever the global market demanded their particular fancy as regards to styles from' Dane guns' for Africa to the rude fake' Miguelets' for the South American trade .They where all Grist to the mill.
Regards Rudyard

 

[wganz]

I recently had correspondence with old member ' Poker ' which revealed a very interesting flintlock piece made in Birmingham (UK) most probably for the Women warriors of Dahomey West Africa .

Did he by chance have a pix of this flintlock piece that you could share?

 

[Clark Badgett]

Now YOU are being comical. There were some details Native Americans looked for, like the serpent side plate, or certain markings or details they were led to believe were special, but that was simple marketing. Trade guns weren't built exclusively for Native American trade. That's not what a "trade gun" was. The vast majority of trade guns were sold to whites, and were everyday working man's guns, equivalent to a Sears shotgun. Trade goods were mass-produced, no-frills items people needed for everyday living.

You are applying a very narrow and outdated definition.

Go read some rather exhaustive works on the subject, then get back to me. I suggest you start here.

 

[Rudyard]

Did he by chance have a pix of this flintlock piece that you could share?

Yes he posted it I think or he sought me out via PMs but though an older member he didnt seem to post much . He bought it nice probably it was never sent but remained a sample in store .Are you into African Trade guns ?as a young man of 20 I travelled through West Africa hot weary pestilent place got all kinds of maladies but survived That was 1965 Met all kinds of Peace Corps, VSO, & Cuso. teacher's mostly. Morocco to Mali over Sahara thence Sierra Leone to the Cameroons .First big ' OE 'wake up ! Ime writing a book as I kept diaries not sure I can recover the pics he sent me but 'Poker '' should by now have good pics though he never replied that much but was grateful for my info It seems it was for female Warriors in the murderous Kingdom of Dahomey . I remember Dahomey I got Malaria there but didn't know it was till I reached Lagos their Peace Corps doctor told me .The100 & 4 temperature was no fun The old adage " Beware of the Evil bight of Benin ,where few come out ,though many go in " Got that right .
For now Regards Rudyard

 

[Tumbledown]

Go read some rather exhaustive works on the subject, then get back to me. I suggest you start here.

Again, there's more to the subject than those made for Native Americans. I'm done with you on this subject.

 

[Sam squanch]

No reason that an original trade gun was not restocked back in the day through breakage or even termites or a house fire. Lots of old guns were modified or altered over the years.