Colt 1851 Navy In .40 Cal

[rodwha]

I can't seem to find much info on these experimental pistols. All I found was a tiny piece included in the wiki for the '51 Navy.

I'm curious why the Navy decided on the .36 cal instead, as well as the particulars of the .40 cal version.

I know of just one guy who modified a repro into one.

I had found this too, but this appears to me to be a .36 cal that someone not understanding how they were measured them calling it a .40 cal.
https://www.joesalter.com/category/products/Rare-Colt-1851-Navy-Prototype-Enlarged-Caliber-Revolver

 

[necchi]

Interesting point of conversation for sure, I haven't a clue why they chose 36cal.
I would guess because that's what the military was using or requested at the time.

But your link sites references,, so it's not someone "not understanding"

 

[rodwha]

The chamber diameters are that of what is found on a .36 cal though. The bore measurement, I was wondering, might have been groove instead of lands, which would make sense.

 

[cynthialee]

Somehow I have gotten it into my head that the .40 was never pursued as it was part of Colt's R&D that was shuttered for the war as resources were all focused on churning out weapons for the war effort. Then by the time the war was over the end of the cap and ball era was already on the horizon.

Don't know if that is true or not.

 

[nkbj]

Sounds right!

 

[Zonie]

The .36 was considered to be a full size pistol round, quite capable of killing people.
Among civilians in the 1830's and '40's it was considered to be about all that was needed.

A lot of pepper boxes were .36 caliber and Colts first large Paterson revolvers were that size.

These larger Paterson's were used in Texas by the Texas Rangers among others and although these pistols had their reliability problems, the proved to be quite effective.

By 1847, one of the things Walker was concerned with about the .36 Paterson is, it was not good at stopping horses. Because of that, he wanted the pistol to be a .44 which explains why the Walker is a .44.

When Colt went after the Army contracts he found the Army agreed with Walker, a .44 caliber pistol was needed so the Walker and following Dragoon models sold to the Army were that size.

As for why Colt called his 1851 pistol a Navy, he called it that to try to get military contracts from the Navy.

The Navy did not need to concern themselves with killing horses so the smaller, lighter .36 caliber suited their needs fine.

Some speculate that the reason Colt selected the roll engraved cylinder depicting the sea battle between the Texans and Mexico had a lot to do with marketing the gun to the Navy.

As for why wasn't the 1851 a .40 caliber?
As I mentioned, at the time a .36 was considered adequate.

IMO, due to the metallurgy of the time, going to a .40 caliber would require increasing the pistols cylinder diameter and barrel wall thickness which would lead to a increase in its overall size and weight.

I rather doubt the civilians of the time would have wanted a larger, heavier pistol when a .36 caliber gun did everything they expected from a handgun.

 

[nkbj]

Since reading about the experimental .40's built on the '51 I've suspected that very thing about the materials in use at the time.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Remember that they were actually called them "Colt Revolving Belt Pistol of Naval Caliber"...yeah, I know but that's what Colt called them. The old joke has always been that sailors are easier to kill than soldiers but leave us let that one slide! :wink: Colt experimented, for the U.S. Navy Bureau of Ordnance, with both .34 and .40 caliber versions...at least 5 of the latter are known to have been made. The quick version of caliber with Colt is "Pocket Pistol" for .31, "Belt Pistol" for .36 and "Holster Pistol" for .44. The Whitneyville Walker could have been called "Colt Revolving Horse Anchor" but I digress.

Many moons ago, Turner Kirkland pointed out the rather novel fact that in balls for most military calibers that the .58 is half the weight of the .69; the .44 is half the weight of the .58 and the .36 is half the weight of the .44. In the FWIW category, the .31 and .28 calibers, both used by Colt, are 1/3 and 1/5 the weight of the .44! Happy accident? Pre-planned conspiracy? No one really cares? :haha:

To further draw out the FWIW angle, Colt chose to engrave the M.1851 cylinders with a naval engagement scene which many claim is the reason for the "Navy" name. The actual engagement represents the Republic of Texas Navy's victory over the Mexican Navy off Campeche, May 16, 1843...the novelty is that it's the only known victory of an all sail fleet over a steam powered one. Coincidentally, the .44's have dragoon scenes which represent Texas Rangers fighting Comanches...no matter that the 'rangers', no capitals then, didn't wear uniforms. Both are odd since it's was the devalued "red backs" of the Republic of Texas (yes, we used red ink just to be different) drove Colt's Paterson, N.J. operation into bankruptcy! And there's everything you never wanted to know about all that! :wink: :haha: :rotf:

 

[azmntman]

VERY interesting keep em coming. I LOVE BP trivia :hatsoff:

 

[M. De Land]

Bill Hickock must have worked for Colt during R&D on the 51 because he sure proved the effectiveness of the .36 on humans! :rotf:

 

[Wes/Tex]

Modern ballistic research has confirmed the .36 Navy is the ballistic equivalent of a modern .380 HP. Bit disconcerting but that's what it's proved to be. Accuracy is everything. One point not known to everyone is that at the time of the fight with Dave Tutt, Hickock also owned a Colt Dragoon. Since his little tiff had built up and the shoot out was somewhat planned, I"d bet my own money it may not have been Navy Day that afternoon! I would have up-gunned adn he was more shootout savy than I'll ever be! :wink: :haha:

 

[cynthialee]

IDK...drawing a .36 belt pistol is faster than a Dragoon
I would be going with the smaller faster drawing gun.

 

[Wes/Tex]

At nearly 75 yards, that shoot out wasn't really about speed!

 

[nit wit]

NW

 

[Story]

Modern ballistic research has confirmed the .36 Navy is the ballistic equivalent of a modern .380 HP. Bit disconcerting but that's what it's proved to be. Accuracy is everything. One point not known to everyone is that at the time of the fight with Dave Tutt, Hickock also owned a Colt Dragoon. Since his little tiff had built up and the shoot out was somewhat planned, I"d bet my own money it may not have been Navy Day that afternoon! I would have up-gunned adn he was more shootout savy than I'll ever be! :wink: :haha:

You are correct, according to this eyewitness account - Hickok wore a brace of Colt Navy revolvers that day, but he was only 50 paces from Tutt - which by my count, works out to about 12 1/2 yards. http://www.legendsofamerica.com/we-wildbill.html

 

[hawkeye2]

Using a 30" pace which isn't a bad guess for a person on level clear ground (few exceed that) the distance works out to 125' or 41.7 yards. That wouldn't have been a difficult pistol shot for a person who wasn't under the pressure of loosing his life if he missed. Hickok must have been a cool person in a tight situation. A shot like that was not beyond the capabilities of a Colt Navy and I know of a lot of competitors that could do it one handed, arm extended, no support while punching paper.

 

[rodwha]

"Modern ballistic research has confirmed the .36 Navy is the ballistic equivalent of a modern .380 HP. Bit disconcerting but that's what it's proved to be."

That all depends on the powder and projectile used. Not much difference between the Remington and Colt:
http://poconoshooting.com/blackpowderballistics.html

A fellow using 20 grns of 3F Olde Eynsford and a 200 grn conical got .380 ACP performance.

 

[curator]

Colt did indeed experiment with a .40 caliber 1851 pistol looking for a bit more power. He only made a few prototypes.
Ol' Sam's system for choosing bore size as his pistols became smaller was that the conical bullet of the .36 (really .375") revolver weighed the same as the round ball of the larger .44 caliber.
His original choice for the Walker Colt was to shoot a conical bullet of the same weight as the round ball of the .54 caliber "Mississippi" rifle. This worked well and found favor with the military. So, a .36 conical has about the same weight as a .44 round ball. A .32 conical has about the same weight as a .36 round ball.

 

[nhmoose]

Thanks good read ! :hatsoff:

 

[rodwha]

Hmmm... Interesting. Was there reasoning behind this? Maybe figuring on similar penetration?