Colt 1860 Vs Remington New Model

[Russ T Frizzen]

I own a Remington 1858 , 5.5in bbl model. I like it. I will probably get an 1861 Colt Pocket Model, like the 1851 but rounded barrel and rammer like the 1860. Anyway, I have owned Colts before and found the wedge to be a PITA ,but i have to admit that the Colt has the "better" feel between the two. IMHO

I don't have any small frame Colts anymore. The grip is just too small to be comfortable in my average size hands.

 

[Boston Bill]

I have enough trouble loading a 36 cap and ball. Not even going to try a 31!

 

[Stantheman86]

The 1858 Remington-Beals revolver was accepted during a time when the military issued nitrate paper cartridges loaded with light 17-24 grain charges of "pistol powder " and a heavy conical . The idea was to mitigate fouling so the guns could get through an 18 round "issue" of ammunition. And both the Colt and Remington had no problems functioning under what the Ordnance Dept thought was expected combat use.

both will foul up with extended shooting, which is why letters home from soldiers talk about pouring canteens over revolvers to free them up in a fight, so they could be loaded again. Because plenty of guys carried more than the 18 rounds allotted as a "standard" by the Ordnance Dept

So, here in 2022 people dump 40 grains of 2f, 3f, 777,or Pyrodex , or whatever into the chambers of Rems and Colts, using various lube. Or not. Lead round balls, sometimes cast from harder alloys and we get the "information creep" of how these guns perform vs each other based on range blasting and field use with charges and projectiles the guns were never designed to use and Italian reproductions are just that, reproductions that are pretty close to originals but not the same

I just think it's funny that people will vehemently stand behind a weapons design because they own an Italian repro of it, this is what makes the shooting hobby so awesome.

 

[Stantheman86]

I want to use these things but also take care of them as best I can …I have a 20 year old Porsche that I keep covered but I use it … vigorously at times but I haven’t tried to cover every scratch or baby it to the point of not enjoying it . I do park it away from others if I can but I got it to use it not just look at it … just like the Colt 2nd Gen …I think I got what I was looking for from my question … thanks

Exactly, people should take care of things but also enjoy them

I've seen threads on people using tape, drops of oil, clear nail polish etc to prevent drag lines on cylinders or lining holsters with velvet to prevent holster wear, I'm like. Please just put that gun back in your safe and shoot something that won't cause you heartburn if it gets some character from actual use

I don't think Bill Hickock was gently finessing wedges out of Colt Navies with plastic hammers or keeping them in a lambs wool holster to protect the finish, he just used them.

I've probably had this gun apart 200 times this summer at the range, using a little brass hammer to pop the wedge. The little bit of character doesn't bother bother me

 

[Flintlock Whiskey]

Really? I take it you don't believe me?
There are actually places in the USA that the density of a city or county is to a point that just firing a weapon may cause injury to a person. That leads to ordinances against certain things ( like endangering your neighbors ?). I envy you folks that can shoot off the front or back porch where you live but I don't live there. I also don't have time to drive to a neighboring county just to shoot bp . . . and I'm fine with it. My situation allowed me the opportunity to start doing what I do now for the last 10+ yrs.

Hope that's good enough.

Mike

Put your guns away mister. I was only curious as to which country you were speaking of. Congratulations, you got yourself in a twist thinking someone was calling your word into question. It was nothing like that. Forget I asked and chill.

 

[Flintlock Whiskey]

I know Cave Creek and Whiskey Row. I lived in Troon.

Yep, not too far away. Place is getting crowded unfortunately.

 

[Flintlock Whiskey]

Yep, then you know what I'm saying.

I actually do what I do at my home and I don't publish my address, ph. number or necessarily it's approximate location for security reasons. So, that's my answer.

Mike

Could have just said that.

 

[Flintlock Whiskey]

1858 Remington
View attachment 173178

1851 Navy
View attachment 173179

Yep, that's the size of them, I mean "it", sorry.

 

[45D]

Could have just said that.

Yep.
That's a lot more words than just " I live where I can't shoot outdoors".


Make

 

[Pete453]

Well, bout a month or so back, someone mentioned on here that Pietta and Uberti were going to go up in price I believe in October. Soooooo - I jumped on line and bought a Pietta 1860 Army from Midway and man, I love it. I always liked my 51 Navy resting in the palm of my hand and didn't think it could get any better but guess what, for the first time in my life I was wrong.

Those 60 Armies sure are svelte, aren't they? The 51 Navies used to be my favorite, till I handled and shot an army. I had a 21 pietta army, man what a nice gun. I have a 21 uberti now, another sweetheart. I'm going to buy a steel trigger guard and another barrel for it. I'll make a walnut case for it and it's accessories and it will be one sweet kit. Maybe by spring I'll have some show and tell to post here.

 

[Pete453]

They are beautiful Victorian era revolvers that really are examples of a time when firearms were pieces of art, were hand fitted and Sam Colt ensured each one had a roll engraved cylinder, even during "wartime production " so you knew it was a real Colt. They were also designed to be perfectly balanced, to blow the fouling out the open top rather than back into the gun, they were simple with few moving parts , and they were tough, reliable guns that were used hard .

The Remington is an example of a simple, no frills revolver made with Industrial Revolution technology, designed to be made quickly and for less $$ to compete with Colt.

I think this may be a pretty accurate statement, colts were designed to handle and keep running inspite of black powder fouling(reliability). My Remington doesn't handle fouling near as well as my colts. That doesn't mean two cylinders full wouldn't be enough for combat at the time, though. I guess we'll never really know, and that's fine with me. That means more research (shooting) is in order, and I'm always ready for more shooting!

 

[Stantheman86]

I think this may be a pretty accurate statement, colts were designed to handle and keep running inspite of black powder fouling(reliability). My Remington doesn't handle fouling near as well as my colts. That doesn't mean two cylinders full wouldn't be enough for combat at the time, though. I guess we'll never really know, and that's fine with me. That means more research (shooting) is in order, and I'm always ready for more shooting!

The Open Top design was genius, it was designed to blow fouling out of the gun to keep it running. Pure genius

 

[45D]

The 1858 Remington-Beals revolver was accepted during a time when the military issued nitrate paper cartridges loaded with light 17-24 grain charges of "pistol powder " and a heavy conical . The idea was to mitigate fouling so the guns could get through an 18 round "issue" of ammunition. And both the Colt and Remington had no problems functioning under what the Ordnance Dept thought was expected combat use.

both will foul up with extended shooting, which is why letters home from soldiers talk about pouring canteens over revolvers to free them up in a fight, so they could be loaded again. Because plenty of guys carried more than the 18 rounds allotted as a "standard" by the Ordnance Dept

So, here in 2022 people dump 40 grains of 2f, 3f, 777,or Pyrodex , or whatever into the chambers of Rems and Colts, using various lube. Or not. Lead round balls, sometimes cast from harder alloys and we get the "information creep" of how these guns perform vs each other based on range blasting and field use with charges and projectiles the guns were never designed to use and Italian reproductions are just that, reproductions that are pretty close to originals but not the same

I just think it's funny that people will vehemently stand behind a weapons design because they own an Italian repro of it, this is what makes the shooting hobby so awesome.

The way I see it, it is BECAUSE of wanting better performance is how "Better performance" is found. The SAA may not have been "designed" for fast draw or fanning but in house smiths / tuners found a way to make that happen! That knowledge passed on to others like Jim Martin is how Mr. Martin was able to teach Eddie Janis and many others ( including me) how to do the same. So, for the open-top revolvers the same techniques apply and you get revolvers that can be expected to go 160 -180 rounds with no problems . . . that's a might farther than 18. It may include things not available when the revolvers were new such as Mobil1 grease, dry lubed felt wads, coil spring replacements etc. Since we have to use "new" caps that tend to fragment or use light main springs so the fast shooting can be realized, new developments like cap posts to block caps from being dragged back so that they fall into the action and /or cause failure to fire. The action shield that keeps fouling and cap fragments from entering the action . . . these things are the result of "wanting better ".
Currently, I for one, am in search of what the open-top platforms we have today can withstand which may/will extend the use of the revolver . . . even if it uses a different propellant with jacketed bullets !!! They may be all that's available at times . . .
Likewise, the Remington and ROA's also benefit from "new" setups and extend the range time, rounds shot as well as the life of the particular revolver.
So, nothing I see wrong with wanting better!!! Sounds more exciting than 18 rounds before cleaning!!!

Mike

 

[Stantheman86]

Every time I look at this unfired C Series 2nd Gen Navy, I hear the ghost of Sam Colt whisper in my ear " After you die your wife's new boyfriend will fire it 6 times with Pyrodex, and it will quietly rust to death in your basement next to the rest of the junk you've been hoarding , I mean collecting.........what are you saving it for , take that thing out and shoot it, son......by the way, you overpaid for it anyway, make me proud son , I made lots of money selling guns for people to actually use....."

 

[45D]

Exactly, people should take care of things but also enjoy them

I've seen threads on people using tape, drops of oil, clear nail polish etc to prevent drag lines on cylinders or lining holsters with velvet to prevent holster wear, I'm like. Please just put that gun back in your safe and shoot something that won't cause you heartburn if it gets some character from actual use

I don't think Bill Hickock was gently finessing wedges out of Colt Navies with plastic hammers or keeping them in a lambs wool holster to protect the finish, he just used them.

I've probably had this gun apart 200 times this summer at the range, using a little brass hammer to pop the wedge. The little bit of character doesn't bother bother me

Drag lines ( beauty rings) are typical of ill timing and /or mishandling.

I am one of those that like to keep my revolvers looking "new" or at least "well kept" ( that goes for cars as well!! ).

Mike

 

[Stantheman86]

The way I see it, it is BECAUSE of wanting better performance is how "Better performance" is found. The SAA may not have been "designed" for fast draw or fanning but in house smiths / tuners found a way to make that happen! That knowledge passed on to others like Jim Martin is how Mr. Martin was able to teach Eddie Janis and many others ( including me) how to do the same. So, for the open-top revolvers the same techniques apply and you get revolvers that can be expected to go 160 -180 rounds with no problems . . . that's a might farther than 18. It may include things not available when the revolvers were new such as Mobil1 grease, dry lubed felt wads, coil spring replacements etc. Since we have to use "new" caps that tend to fragment or use light main springs so the fast shooting can be realized, new developments like cap posts to block caps from being dragged back so that they fall into the action and /or cause failure to fire. The action shield that keeps fouling and cap fragments from entering the action . . . these things are the result of "wanting better ".
Currently, I for one, am in search of what the open-top platforms we have today can withstand which may/will extend the use of the revolver . . . even if it uses a different propellant with jacketed bullets !!! They may be all that's available at times . . .
Likewise, the Remington and ROA's also benefit from "new" setups and extend the range time, rounds shot as well as the life of the particular revolver.
So, nothing I see wrong with wanting better!!! Sounds more exciting than 18 rounds before cleaning!!!

Mike

Absolutely correct, I was more expanding on not looking at a repro 1858 Remington or 1860 Army under the lens of today's range blasting, topped off chambers and various powder subs, plus yes , modern caps and bullets.

The expected use and testing by the Ordance Dept was for a much different load, with powder in between 3 and 4f, and big conicals. Each Officer was (on paper) to be issued 3 packs of 6 Nitrate cartridges to be carried in the cartridge pouch on the belt. Keeping fouling down was always a main goal for all weapons at time.

Popping off 100 rounds was not a concern. The Colt is IMO more capable of extended firing but this was not a concern at that time, and the Remington passed the requirements for acceptance as a supplemental Service revolver.

18 rounds of .45 LC was all that was "issued" in later years. Surely guys took or acquired more , much like I'm sure with nitrate cartridges

 

[Stantheman86]

Drag lines ( beauty rings) are typical of ill timing and /or mishandling.

I am one of those that like to keep my revolvers looking "new" or at least "well kept" ( that goes for cars as well!! ).

Mike

I thoroughly clean all my percussions but I use them hard at times, and carry them to the range in leather holsters. Bolt dings and beauty rings occur on some of my guns, especially Piettas and I don't worry about it.

I used my London Navy pretty hard today, it's all clean and tight as new now.

 

[Stantheman86]

I think this may be a pretty accurate statement, colts were designed to handle and keep running inspite of black powder fouling(reliability). My Remington doesn't handle fouling near as well as my colts. That doesn't mean two cylinders full wouldn't be enough for combat at the time, though. I guess we'll never really know, and that's fine with me. That means more research (shooting) is in order, and I'm always ready for more shooting!

I am constantly researching and that means going out and shooting

 

[45D]

Absolutely correct, I was more expanding on not looking at a repro 1858 Remington or 1860 Army under the lens of today's range blasting, topped off chambers and various powder subs, plus yes , modern caps and bullets.

The expected use and testing by the Ordance Dept was for a much different load, with powder in between 3 and 4f, and big conicals. Each Officer was (on paper) to be issued 3 packs of 6 Nitrate cartridges to be carried in the cartridge pouch on the belt. Keeping fouling down was always a main goal for all weapons at time.

Popping off 100 rounds was not a concern. The Colt is IMO more capable of extended firing but this was not a concern at that time, and the Remington passed the requirements for acceptance as a supplemental Service revolver.

18 rounds of .45 LC was all that was "issued" in later years. Surely guys took or acquired more , much like I'm sure with nitrate cartridges

Just between me and you, I bet the Remie barely made it!!!!

Mike

 

[Stantheman86]

Just between me and you, I bet the Remie barely made it!!!!

Mike

If we found original documentation, I'd bet we're right