Colt Dragoon Woes

[Marc Adamchek]

Well, my Colt Signature series Dragoon came in today. The original owner bought it and put it away as an investment.

This means all the factory packing grease has had plenty of time to gum up the works and solidify.

What looked like rust in spots thankfully turned out to be the aforementioned dried grease. In fact, once IO rubbed all the external crap the gun looks really nice. The case colors are deep and beautiful, whoever built it. Ditto the bluing.

The real trouble came when I pulled, or tried to pull the hammer back. I barely got it to half-cock, and with more force than I wanted to, budged the cylinder. I thebn tried to cock it, which I did. The cylinder didn;'t move at all on its own. I dropped the hammer on a "pin".

It's down on the workbench now, with a few sprays of EEZOX shot into the hammer works, aylinder, wedge pin, etc. I figured I'd let it soak in before disassembling tomnorrow.

It's been a really long day, as you can see by the time of this post, so I just had to stop myself from trying anymore tonight.

And I wanted to ask you all for some advice and opinions. What would you recommend I do, and/or how would you recommend I do it. Also, how real is the danger of my working the hammer while the cylinder remained "frozen" in place?

Your word are most welcome. I'm p;ain beat, I'm turning in.

Thanks for any help

 

[Zonie]

Working the hammer without the cylinder turning is an excellent way to bust the hand, if you havent already busted it.

The hand is attached directly to the hammer and its upper end sticks thru a slot in the recoil shield to engage the ratchet teeth on the rear of the cylinder.
(When the hammer is cocked, the hand pushes up on a ratchet tooth to rotate the cylinder.)

The first thing you should have done is to disassemble the barrel, and cylinder from the frame.

If the hardened grease won't allow the cylinder to rotate try to remove the barrel from the frame and then squirt some disk brake cleaner, kerosene, PB Blaster or some other good penetrating oil into the cylinders arbor hole and let it work in.

When the cylinder will rotate freely then remove the cylinder and inspect the hand for damage.

 

[Marc Adamchek]

Thanks, Zonie. I was afraid of that. Once the cylinder is off will it be very evident if the hand is broken?

If it is, how involved is the fix? Is it one of those that ends up having to replace more parts than just the one that is mainly broken? Also, you know I'm brand spankin' new to these cap 'n ball things. Is the fix so involved that it would require a smith?

Oh yeah, one more thing. I know I can't disassemble it without putting it on half-cock...at least I think that's needed. I was only trying to put the hammer on half-cock to set it up for disassembly. That's when the pressure needed on the hammer went past half-cock, so I felt I had to commit and pull it back so I could drop it. Kind of a weak defense on my part, I know, but you can imagine how it happened I'm sure. I guess I was also hoping that the cylinder WOULD move with the cocking.

I don't want to swamp you with questions, but just one more, I promise: Can Uberti parts be used in the unlikely event Colt parts are needed and available?

Thanks VERY much for your help, as always.

 

[Zonie]

It is possible that the hand is all right and maybe just the little spring that pushes the hand out to engage the cylinder ratchet is broken.

It is also possible that the hand is equally gummed up and that is keeping it from engaging the rear of the cylinder.

You really need to unscrew the two screws on the grip strap and the one screw at the bottom of the grip and then pull off the wooden grip.

Once that is removed you can dunk the whole pistol into a bucket of kerosene and let it soften the grease.

Uberti parts like the hand should fit. In fact, Pietta parts should fit too.
The hand is usually made a little long and the working end usually needs to be trimmed to get the timing right.

If you have Adobe, you can to to the Dixie site in this link and download the exploded view of your pistol. All Colt pistols are basically the same (except for the 1855 Roots model).
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_657&products_id=12245

Once you open that link, you will see a tiny red PDF logo. Click on it to download the PDF file.
Save the file somewhere on your computer and then open it.

You will have to use the Adobe view magnifier to blow it up but it does show all of the pieces and where they go.

There are also other posts on our forum that discuss disassembling the Colt style pistols.

 

[Marc Adamchek]

Once again, Thank You. It's later, actually EARLY morning here, if you want to be precise. Coming down hard on 1:30 AM, so I need to get some sleep and get into this dragoon when I'm a little more fresh.

Oh, one thing about the kerosene and the other solvents you mentioned: Are any of these going to wreak havaoc with the case colors? I only ask because I messed up the case colors on a nice Colt SAA once with a 2 day soak in Hoppes Copper solvent. Faded almost completely away in some spots, and this was a new gun.

I know that's lower on the priority list for getting this gun shootable but, well, you know how it is....

Also, was I right by saying the hammer has to be on half-cock before disassembly is possible?

OK,I KNOW I've worn out my welcome with this barrage of questions tonight. I once and for all am leaving this keyboard and heading to bed. Good Night, Zonie, sleep well.

 

[M. De Land]

Half cock retracts the bolt from the cylinder so yes it should be put on half cock for disassembly.
I don't know how the receivers are cased but I doubt kerosene will have any effect on the color.
They routinely have gun oil on them and that is often petroleum based as well.
I do know bright sun light makes case colors fade. MD

 

[Many Klatch]

I found a lot of videos on YouTube on how to disassemble my caplocks. A quick look see should provide all the information you need. Duelist1954 is a member of this forum and has some of the best videos that I have found. Check him out before you go much farther.

Many Klatch

 

[spitpatch]

Maby the barrel wedge is in to far. That will freeze the cylinder.

 

[crockett]

Marc: are you completely disassembling the guns? By that I mean take off the barrel and remove the cylinder and then take off the grip, main spring, all the internal parts. On any black powder revolver- it isn't like a modern revolver that most folks never take apart- the black powder revolvers really need to be taken apart for cleaning. Some guys just do this once a year and others (me) do it every time they shoot. You don't want to mar the screw slots on the bolts so you need a couple of screwdrivers that are ground and EXACTLY fit the width and thickness of the slots. If you don't have a Dixie Gun Works catalog- they have pretty good diagrams on how the guns disassemble plus parts, etc.
In any event, the first time, write down or draw how things look so you can put it all back together okay. I use a pizza pan with a shallow rim to put all the parts whenever I clean a gun.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Lot of good advice here. If I were you, I would print out Zonie's posts and save somewhere for future reference.
My first ml gun of any kind was a Rem. Army kit from DGW. Assembling that and filing/stoning parts to make it work was my introduction to fixing all kinds of guns. Fortunately, for me (and you :grin: ) single action revolvers are not real complicated. Take yer time and don't force anything (again :shocked2: ). Good luck, I'm sure in the end all will be well.

 

[Marc Adamchek]

Many Thanks to all you guys who responded with tips and advice.

Crockett, not too worry. I bought a full Brownell's Gunsmith screwdriver set quite sometime ago. I collect (and SHOOT)some pretty high-end original British percussion doubles, both shotguns and rifles, and there have been times when I simply could NOT bugger up a screw head doing a routine job.

And Rifleman, your advice to print Zonie's contributions is right on but a little late. I already have. In fact, In the past few years I've printed out quite a few threads wherein the Wisdom of Zonie was an integral part. But there are other members here as well who have contributed to my education entirely free of cost.

You can't beat being a member here.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Once you get it cleaned & lubed and are ready to load it, remember to snap a couple caps prior to loading to remove any residual grease/oil from the nipples. If packing grease got into the nipples, soak em' in brake cleaner or the like to remove the grease and be sure to clean the threads in the cylinder real good too. You don't want to break nipple wrenches trying to remove greased-up nipples that have a solid, packed crud ring all throughout.

Enjoy your new Colt and if you need anything, just PM me.

Dave

 

[Gatofeo]

Remove the wooden grips.
Get a couple cans of Brake Cleaner solvent, the kind with the long plastic tube.
Squirt this into the action, accessing it from the area forward of the hammer pulled back a bit, or through the slot for the trigger.
Shoot that all over the revolver. It will make short order of the dried grease.
Do this outside, in the driveway, or the spray will kill the grass for a long time.
Keep children and pets away. Wear eye protection and latex gloves.
Eventually, you'll feel the action loosen as the solvent loosens the grease. Work some into the rear of the cylinder with the plastic tube.
You'll eventually get enough grease off to half-cock it, tap out the wedge with a nylon-faced hammer (never steel and avoid brass).
With proper-fitting gunsmith screwdrivers, gently try to back out the screws around the trigger guard. If they're still tight, work some solvent in around them with the plastic tube.
Keep at it.
It may take a while, but you'll get the grease blasted off or at least softened enough to remove parts.
Scrub the bore and chambers with a bronze brush wet with the solvent.
The nipples may be particularly hard to remove. Plug the nipple hole with a short length of round toothpick, stand the cylinder base down in a clean tuna can, and put a few drops of penetrating oil into each chamber. Allow to soak overnight. Multiple treatments like this may be necessary before the nipples are free enough to remove.
When traces of all the old grease are gone from the revolver, re-oil with olive oil.
Petroleum greases and oils tend to create a hard, tarry fouling when used with black powder. Natural oils and greases do not.
Olive oil has been my favorite preservative for black powder guns for decades. It's cheap, doesn't get gummy over time like vegetable oil, and protects against rust.
No need to remove it before shooting, as its natural.
Brake cleaner is inexpensive and very effective -- but don't let it anywhere near wooden stocks or plastic parts! It's also good for melting the plastic wad residue left in shotguns. Spray some down the barrel, follow with a tight patch wet with the same solvent, and you can push out the loosened wad plastic.
Gun solvent companies sell their "Zip Wham Solvent" for degreasing and plastic residue removal -- often for three times as much as a can of brake solvent.
I suspect it's the same stuff, perhaps with some fragrance to disguise its identity.

 

[Shoeless]

Marc,Did you take out the wedge and remove the cylinder. That usually frees everything up or did I miss something in all these posts?

 

[Marc Adamchek]

I took the wedge completely out. Man, the spring on that baby is so high it's going to be a bear getting it back in. I hoped that would magically help, but it didn't. I very gingerly pulled the hammer back but almost immediately felt it resisting so I stopped. Needless to say the cylinder didn't budge a millimeter.

Right now I'm waiting to buy some kerosene, which brings up a point or two: Is there a particular grade of kerosene that would be best suited to this task? Where can I buy kerosene these days? I've gotta say I never bought any, it was always around the garage at the family house.

Oh yeah, another question: How long should I keep the pistol submerged in the kerosene to loosen up the crud?

That's the plan right now, shoeless. I'm hoping I didn't break the hand when I forced the hammer to half cock and moved the cylinder by hand to a pin to rest the hammer on.

The dried grease is like cement, everything is frozen.

 

[Marc Adamchek]

Gatafeo - Many thanks for the procedure breakdown. I've already got a can of brake cleaner down on the workbench, have used it many times for various cleaning jobs, the stuff WORKS, that's for sure.

Zonie recommended using brake cleaner at first but then recommended I take off the grips and dunk that dragoon in a bucket of kerosene and let that work. I forgot to ask him how long I should let it stay submerged before taking it out. I guess just check it every couple minutes(?)

The only thing that worries me about brake cleaner is that it might mess with the case colors. I know from experience how fragile this coloring is and it would seem to me that something as strong as brake cleaner would just blast 'em away. And even though this dragoon ain't shooting, the Colt case colors and bluing look really deep and nice. It's like a car that won't run but has beautiful chrome!

 

[necchi]

Brake cleaner isn't going to mess with the case coloring.
Kerosene can be had a fleet supply and Hardware that sell space heaters.
I'd use gas.
Take the wood off an toss the thing in a pan of kerosene or gas overnight.
I have elbow deep rubber gloves. Work things loose, wipe off all the excess, THEN use the brake cleaner to get the smell of the previous "solvent" off the metal parts.

Any time I have a New gun with all that packing grease I use gasoline first, brake cleaner second and finish with Denature Alcohol.
Parts are "clean"!

 

[Marc Adamchek]

Thanks for sharing your secret formula, necchi! I do appreciate it.

Also thanks for allaying my case color fears.

 

[SDSmlf]

While not HC or PC I would suggest using some homemade 'Ed's Red' (Google for its history). Not very expensive and simple to make and use. Should cut through everything. I have a some stainless pans with lids (McMaster-Carr I believe) that I just place a handgun in (after removing grips and any other wood or plastic) and let it soak overnight. If really dirty may flip gun over and let sit another night. You could use a cake pan covered tightly with tinfoil. Acetone evaporates quickly if not covered. During a long soak I may added some acetone to keep solution fresh. Most gunk falls away without any scrubbing. I wipe and blow off excess with compressed air. Leaves a trace of ATF and provides pretty good short term rust prevention. In my experience it does not harm case hardening colors.

NOTE: Ed's Red does NOT clean up black powder residue - you still need to use good old H2O.

Most everything listed below can be purchased at Wally World. I use their cheapest ATF from automotive department. Odorless mineral spirits and acetone are in the paint department. Kerosene on nearby shelves for space heaters. If you want to use lanolin you have to go to a pharmacy - comes in a one pound tub.

Be careful what you store Ed's Red in. Original acetone container or metal can (say from mineral spirits) works well. I mix a gallon at a time, using ATF container to measure equal amounts of the other three ingredients.

Find myself using this stuff to clean a lot more than firearms. ________________________________________________________________________________
CONTENTS: Ed's Red Bore Cleaner

1 part Dexron II, IIe or III ATF, GM Spec. D-20265 or later.

1 part Kerosene - deodorized, K1

1 part Aliphatic Mineral Spirits, Fed. Spec. TT-T-2981F, CAS #64741-49-9, or substitute "Stoddard Solvent", CAS #8052-41-3, or equivalent, (aka "Varsol")

1 part Acetone, CAS #67-64-1.

(Optional up to 1 lb. of Lanolin, Anhydrous, USP per gallon, OK to substitute Lanolin, Modified, Topical Lubricant, from the drug store)

MIXING INSTRUCTIONS: Mix outdoors, in good ventilation. Use a clean 1 gallon metal, chemical-resistant, heavy gage PET or PVC plastic container. NFPA approved plastic gasoline storage containers are also OK. Do NOT use HDPE, which is breathable because the acetone will evaporate. The acetone in ER will attack HDPE in about 6 months, making a heck of a mess! Add the ATF first. Use the empty container to measure the other components, so that it is thoroughly rinsed. If you incorporate the lanolin into the mixture, melt this carefully in a double boiler, taking precautions against fire. Pour the melted lanolin it into a larger container, rinsing the lanolin container with the bore cleaner mix, and stirring until it is all dissolved. I recommend diverting a small quantity, up to 4 ozs. per quart of the 50-50 ATF/kerosene mix for use as an "ER-compatible" gun oil. This can be done without impairing the effectiveness of the mix.

 

[necchi]

He doesn't need Ed's Red to clean packing grease!
Cheesh,, :shocked2:
It's a great formula for Center fire stuff but has darn little use in the BP ML world.