comparing my old Leman rifle to a Leman found in a museum

[whitedog333]

When my wife and I went to The Museum Of The Fur Trade in Chadron, Nebraska a while back, I found and photographed a Leman trade flintlock that was in a display case along with several rifles of other makers. Interestingly, I found several features on the Leman rifle within the display case that matched mine, but most important, the rather unusual sideplates of both rifles matched perfectly. A very good indication that my rifle just wasn't built with a Henry Leman barrel, but was in all likelyhood, like the early Leman rifle in the museum, made by Henry Leman himself as one of his very first rifles in 1834 or 1835. Anyway, here are the pictures of my rifle and the museum rifle to compare. Both rifles have the same square end on their breech plug tangs. The museum rifle has domed heads on its lock plate mounting screws while mine has flat. The museum rifle has a rounder contour of the wood at the back of it's lock and sideplate mortise while mine has more pointed or tapered. My rifle has no ramrod entry thimble while the museum rifle does. My rifle is 40 caliber while the museum rifle is larger. Both buttplates have the identical contours to the heel tang. A common enough design, but just mentioning it here. The shape of the butt in profile of both rifle's is identical with their gently concave contour from the trigger guards to their toe plates. Both rifles have artificial striping though mine is allmost gone now.

the right side of my early Leman long rifle

The Leman in the museum.

My Leman rifle. Notice the shape of the side plate.

The left side of the Museum Leman showing the identical shaped sideplate

Lock of Museum Leman

A fat old man and his early Leman flintlock longrifle.

 

[LRB]

Although you may be right that the same hand made both, that side plate is not identical. The museum plate has more "hook" in the rear section, and that type of side plate is really rather common on guns of that time, and before. As far as being common on Lemans, I don't know.

 

[whitedog333]

True Wick, they aren't cookie cutter identical. I should've said that they were near enough to possibly be significant on a Leman rifle. Thanks
Wick, I sent you a Private Message, but I can't find any indication of where it can be found or posted for you.

 

[rabjr]

Notice how low the vent hole on the original is.

 

[whitedog333]

They're both original. You mean on the museum rifle? It doesn't look all that deeper to me than others I've seen. It's above the bottom level of the pan.

 

[rabjr]

Guess my eyes are bad, looks to me the vent hole is pretty low on that museum gun.

 

[whitedog333]

Although you may be right that the same hand made both, that side plate is not identical. The museum plate has more "hook" in the rear section, and that type of side plate is really rather common on guns of that time, and before. As far as being common on Lemans, I don't know.

Wick, there was a side plate on another rifle within that display case also whose maker I can't think of now...started with a D. Anyway, it was also a type like this, but was completely different and made of iron. It had a substantial swell in the middle unlike the other two brass sideplates whose contours, although not cut exactly identical as if on a machine, are extremely close in basic design and are a strong suggestion in my mind that at this time, 1834 to 1835, Henry Leman was making rifles that had very similar looking furniture on them. I've really not seen any other such narrow contoured sideplates of this particular shape made of brass on a kentucky rifle before, although they undoubtedly do exist. The provenance of my rifle's history goes back to 1836 when it was recorded as being obtained. The Museum's rifle, like the sign indicates, is from 1835. That is why I feel these two early Leman rifles indicate that young Henry Leman just might have produced other rifles within those two years and possibly his first year of rifle making, 1834, with similar sideplates. I wish I could find them. Guess I'll just have to keep looking.

 

[jethro224]

Yep, it's down in there.

Is yours the same whitedog?

 

[whitedog333]

Yes, it is. exactly the same. Even has the tapered inside contour of the pan where it meets the barrel. Even so, they're both below the top of the pan's edge.

 

[Mulebrain]

Interesting comparison!!

It appears to be very possible, as no two guns are exactly alike!

Do you shoot yours, or have you ever?

 

[davy]

Whitedog ... well heza mitey willin boy! I personaly would not shoot an original all that much ... what would happen if something went wrong and your destroyed what was oncea relic? Game over! :shake: :cursing: :grin:

Davy

 

[whitedog333]

Hi Mule. Yes, I have loaded and shot it about six or eight times. I never worked out just what a good load would be for it. However, as Davy says, I'd hate for anything to happen to this rifle. It's old and there's no telling how much metal fatigue there is in the barrel. Also, every time I tried to clean it after a shoot, I had to dismount the barrel from the stock and a couple of times I dislodged a little bit of wood from around the barrel pin holes. Had to find them on the floor and glue them back into place. It sparks well though and is comfortable to shoulder even with a 47" barrel.

 

[crockett]

Thanks for sharing- always interested in details. I don't think Leman ever sold to the American Fur Co. but they weren't the only player. I think pre-1840 Mr. Leman was selling to the Indian Dept. and probably others; and, he sent some samples to the A. F. Co. for their consideration but never got any orders.
As you may gather- I'm not too knowledgeable on Leman.
1. How did you date the rifle?
2. Leman opened his factory in 1834 but I wonder if he was making rifles before that? It would seem to me someone would be making rifles and then decide to expand by building the factory- but I have no idea on that.
3. Family's originally from Crawford (Just west of Chadron) where's Yutan?
And....
I've mentioned this before but wouldn't it be great if we could develop an archive/data base to store all photos. Those who contribute could leave a contact number if desired and if anyone wanted more info they could email or pm them.

 

[whitedog333]

Something of interest that Sean sent me was that Leman began making rifles in a shop he set up in the building where his father brewed beer. Ummm Beer and longrifles. Sounds like a pleasant combination to me. The rifle does have a provenance of being aquired by an ancestor of a family in early 1836 as a used gun. Your idea of a reference collection of pictures is a great one! Pictures really are worth a thousand words.

 

[Grenadier1758]

In your picture, the rifle above the Leman appears to be a Deringer rifle. It too would have had a similar side plate. I have seen that style plate on Deringer rifles. I used that style to make my Deringer. The 1804 Harper's Ferry has the similar side plate.

 

[crockett]

When I think of Leman or Derringer- I think of rifles sold to the Indian Department. Does anyone know how many other rifles made by such makers got into the hands of trappers "from the States"? In other words- who used the rifles made by Leman, Derringer, etc? Did the Indian Dept unload a lot of their rifles on the general public?

 

[Extranero]

When I think of Leman or Derringer- I think of rifles sold to the Indian Department. Does anyone know how many other rifles made by such makers got into the hands of trappers "from the States"? In other words- who used the rifles made by Leman, Derringer, etc? Did the Indian Dept unload a lot of their rifles on the general public?

Dave,

That's a tough question to answer, but advertisements for Leman, Deringer, and Henry can be found in period newspapers suggesting they sold guns to both individuals and far flung frontier hard goods dealers in addition to the Indian Dept and in Henry's case, AFC. There were several hard goods dealers in Saint Louis advertising all sorts of American, English, Belgian, and even German rifles, fowlers, and pistols for sale. In addition, there are several non-Henry and non-Hawken guns in collections with Western provenances. I think the elder Hanson left us a raft of information on Western fur trade material culture, but the common modern interpretation of his information is very narrow, i.e. every trapper carried a Henry rifle, a Wilson butcher, hauled 6 traps, rode on a St. Louis made saddle over an epishamore, etc. The reality is that there was likely a lot more variability available to western mountaineers than many of us think. After all, if AJ Miller's field sketches are to be believed, then why is it that Kit Carson bought a pair of satinette pantaloons at Ft. Hall in 1834 instead of wearing buckskin ones?

Sean

 

[Extranero]

In your picture, the rifle above the Leman appears to be a Deringer rifle. It too would have had a similar side plate. I have seen that style plate on Deringer rifles. I used that style to make my Deringer. The 1804 Harper's Ferry has the similar side plate.

Mike,

Lots of makers used that military side plate. I've seen 3-4 early Lemans with that plate, maybe a dozen Deringers, a couple of the elder Dickerts. No hard and fast rules. I've seen plenty of Deringers with standard Lancaster type side plates. Bottom line is that most of the contract makers would even pick up parts from their competitors when they got a big order. One good example is a rifle with mixed Henry and Tryon marked parts such that its tough to tell who made it.

Sean

 

[whitedog333]

Yes, that is a Deringer. Good eye! However, the sideplate on it was completely different, being more like a military type with the noticeble and greater swell in the middle. Not even close to the pattern I've seen on the early Leman rifles.

 

[Rod Lassey]

The fact that your Leman has set triggers would, to my mind anyway, set it above the average Indian Department contract rifle. It looks to me like a rifle made expressly for the civilian market.

Does anyone have specs handy for Indian contract rifles? Do they specify any being made with set triggers?

I'm more interested in the simple, military style patchbox---looks very Henry-like, rather different than the style generally used by Leman. Sean is surely on the mark, though, about parts being shared between makers, this could be an example? Or maybe whoever ordered it simply specified that sort of box?

Very interesting and nice rifle, by the way.

Rod