Confused about Colts?

[John V.]

Can you all tell me would a Colt 2nd Gen 1860 Army Cavalry Commemorative F1200 have been made BY the Colt company or is it like the signature series and made by another company with Colt authorizing them to use the Colt name? So confused?(which doesn't take much) :hmm:

 

[Pete44ru]

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AFAIK, only the 1st Gen M-1860's were actually manufactured by Colt.

I seem to remember reading something about how the 2nd Gen M-1860's (and other models) were finished & assembled in NY by Lou Imperato - who later established the new Henry Repeating Arms Co.



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[John V.]

Interesting. Thanks.

 

[Coot]

A copy of "Second EditionBlue Book of Modern Black Powder Values" by Dennis Adler has a history of the reintroduced and repro Colts. In a nutshell the book says that the 2nd generation "C" series guns were made, fitted & finished by Colt in Hartford, using some Italian made castings & some in house parts. The 2nd generation "F" series were made to Colt's own specifications, inspected & sold by Colt but were actually produced by Lou Imperato who had bought the Iver johnson plant & moved it to Middlesex, NJ. Once again, the guns were made using some Italian castings & some in house parts and were fit & finished in Middlesex before shipping to Colt for inspection, acceptance & sales. The "Signature" or 3rd generation were made & sold by the Colt Blackpowder Arms Co. (1994-2002) in Brooklyn under a license from Colt but were never inspected or sold by Colt and are not considered "real" Colts.

 

[John V.]

So the 2nd generation "F" series are considered "real Colts" then?

 

[Coot]

I have never seen any reason to try for any of mine, but my understanding is that Colt will issue (for a fee) a factory letter for the "C" & "F" series second generation guns as they will do with other Colts but not for the "Signature" guns.

 

[John V.]

Man you folks on this site are just plain AWESOME!! You folks have SO MUCH knowledge. Thank you, Thank you. :grin:

 

[azmntman]

Some more than others and they WILL let you know!

I have learned alot! Great site, Merry Christmas guys

 

[Wes/Tex]

Dennis Adler's book will tell you all you never wanted to know about the entire run of 2nd Generation Colt percussion revolvers. It's a bit of a twisted tale but technically, they're all considered to be "Colts"...Colt seems to feel differently about the Signature Series since there appears to be a bit of hard feelings about production being taken over by Anthony Imperato and the Colt Blackpowder Arms Company. Also technically, ALL parts were made by Uberti from the beginning but the first two series were assembled and finished by Colt in the U.S. The later series was assembled to a greater degree by Uberti and finished by Colt Blackpowder Arms. Your Cavalry Commemorative version was made between 1977-1980.

 

[Dphar]

None of the "new" C&B Colts were made or even finished by Colt and I strongly suspect that the late SAAs (after 2nd gen) were made with Italian parts. This based on comparing late gen colt SAAs with Italian guns when I used to work on such things a lot.

Dan

 

[don hepler]

I have read the same information that "Coot" has referred to. I think the association of Uberti with Colt and other American made firearms, has lead to very well built firearms, by Uberti, in particular. I had two 2nd Gen. Colts, and one Uberti, and as far as I could tell, for the money, I would go with the Uberti. I never shot either Colt, due to ruining the value.

 

[budcatoe]

I have seen a similar subject come up before on this and other forums. Colt did outsource the production on the Colt reissue of their black powder revolvers but that, in my opinion, makes them no less Colts. This was not a first for Colt. The production on the Colt Walker in the late 1840's was outsourced to the Eli Whitney Armory but it is a Colt just the same.

 

[John May]

I have a second generation 1851 Navy that needed a new trigger (long story). I bought a replacement from VTI Gunparts for a Uberti 1851 and it won't fit? The profile is very similar but the hole for the pivot screw is too small compared to the original.

 

[John V.]

So are you suggesting that the "Signature Series" Colts are just as much Colts as say...1st or 2nd generation Colts? Just asking because I truly do not know. Thanks. :hmm:

 

[Electric Miner]

To the best of my knowledge from the research I have done, the early 2nd generation "C" series Colts (1971-1973) were made primarily from castings that came rough from Val Forgett of Navy Arms, who got them from Uberti. The castings were fitted and finished at the Colt factory in Hartford using many US made parts. Many Uberti parts will not fit on the Colts, which are slightly smaller than the Ubertis.

From 1974 to 1976, the parts came from Lou Imperato, but were, apparently, still made at the Colt factory. After 1976 (some sources say 1979) until 1982, they were produced entirely at Lou Imperato's factory as the 2nd generation "F" series.

Then comes a gap in production until the 3rd generation "Signature series" guns were produced, also at Imperato's factory.

You can get a letter from Colt on the 2nd generation C and F series pistols, since they were either produced by Colt, or passed through Colt's hands on the way to distributors.


My 1973 C Series...

 

[Coot]

I have a second generation 1851 Navy that needed a new trigger (long story). I bought a replacement from VTI Gunparts for a Uberti 1851 and it won't fit? The profile is very similar but the hole for the pivot screw is too small compared to the original.

I do not have a metric thread gauge to check but I suspect that the Uberti is made with metric sized holes & screws & that the 2nd generation holes & threads are US sizes. In rounding up or down to a standard size in the two different systems interchangeability is compromised.

 

[budcatoe]

The entire production of the signature series Colts was done at Lou Imperato's factory but he was authorized by Colt to use the Colt name and distribute the guns as Colts. The may not have the same status on the collectors market as the second generation C & F models, just as the second generation models don't have the same status as the first generation models from the 1800's, but, in my opinion they are Colts. Read the following and you will see what I mean.

Here your info on 2nd Gen. Colts From The Blue Book Of Modern Blackpowder Arms.

COLT´S MANUFACTURING COMPANY, INC. Current firearms manufacturer with headquarters located in West Hartford, CT.
Colt´s Manufacturing Company, Inc. is the previous manufacturer of 2nd Generation Colt percussion revolvers located in Hartford, CT. Colt used subcontractors to supply rough castings for the manufacture of these black powder pistols. Throughout the production years 1971-1982, these rough castings were produced in Italy and the reproductions were completed in the United States. Initially, Val Forgett and Navy Arms provided these parts/components during 1971-73. Lou Imperato supplied these parts from 1974-76. In both instances, these revolvers were assembled and finished in Colt´s facilities in Connecticut. Finally, from 1978-1982, Colt subcontracted both parts procurement and final production to Lou Imperato and Iver Johnson Arms in Middlesex, NJ. Colt percussion revolvers produced by Iver Johnson had frames, center pins, nipples, and screws manufactured in the United States. In all instances, these revolvers were manufactured in accordance with Colt´s strict specifications and quality control. Additionally, Colt´s performed final inspection for all models. All percussion models manufactured from 1971 through 1982, either by Colt or its subcontractor, are regarded as authentic Colt pistols and not Italian replicas.
The Colt Custom Shop also produced a limited number of special editions through the early 1990s from 2nd Generation production inventory. (Colt 2nd Generation models in the white are still known to exist.)

And the Third Gen Info from the same source.

COLT BLACKPOWDER ARMS CO. Previous manufacturer and retailer of 3rd Generation Colt Black Powder pistols and muskets located in Brooklyn, NY 1994-2002.
All 3rd Generation Colt blackpowder models are also referred to as Signature Series Models.
A reprise of the original Colt Blackpowder line, along with historic models not offered in the 2nd Generation, and a new series of Commemoratives, each model (with the exception of the Heirloom Tiffany 1860 Army and 1842 Texas Paterson) bears the Sam Colt signature on the backstrap. These 3rd Generation models were manufactured under an authorized licensing agreement with Colt Firearms by Colt Blackpowder Arms Company ”“ the same company (and many of the same craftsmen) responsible for the 2nd Generation Colt revolvers. Although parts for the Signature Series were cast in Italy, they were fully assembled and hand finished in the United States using the proprietary Colt formulas for bluing and color case hardening.
Colt Blackpowder Arms Company Signature Series revolvers are regarded as authentic Colt pistols. The 3rd Generation models have original Colt markings, including the barrel address and serial number stampings. There are no foreign proof marks on these authentic Colt models.

 

[John V.]

Sir, Do you shoot your pictured 2nd Gen Colt?

 

[Electric Miner]

It's been out once. Had problems with the caps staying on the stock nipples. We had six different sizes/brands of caps with us, and none were small enough to stay on the nipples. I bought and installed nipples for Remington #11 caps from Track of the Wolf. Haven't had it out again since.


I shoot everything I own, so I tend to stay away from guns that are so collectible they shouldn't be shot.

 

[John V.]

Thank you sir for the reply. I have purchased #10 caps for my Pietta 1860 and real Colt 1860. I have been told using #10's should remedy the situation you speak of? Thanks again. :grin: