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Conicals and slow twist rates?

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kanati

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When we shot ML'ers a long time ago we shot everything out of them, patchball, maxi's minies, they all seemed to shoot fine. Douglas, Pedersoli CVA T/C etc barrels.

Getting back in to it now, and now this is supposedly a big no-no. What is the reasoning for this?

We shot minies (My favorite projectile) out of all different barrels, they always shot hard and accurate, never had any issues.

-Ron
 
The barrels with moderatly shallow rifling will shoot these lead bullets quite well but now-a-days there are also a lot of barrels on the market that are made for shooting roundballs and they have very deep rifling grooves.

Usually these deep grooves will not seal a minie, or a maxi bullet.

If you still own the same gun and it worked well before there is no reason it wouldn't work now.

According to my old Dixie catalog that sold Douglas barrels their rifling groove depth was, "...010 or deeper...".
I wouldn't expect these old Douglas barrels to shoot maxie or minies very well but I'll take your word for it that they did.
 
I shoot a short mini with good results in 1 in 48 guns . But do not get any good groups with my 1 in 66 douglas barrel. But then that is just my results I am sure others will have different results.
 
kanati said:
Anyone? I'll even settle for theory.. :grin:
The armchair shooter and internet myth.... :grin:

Sweeping or unqualified statements such as "you need a 1:'X' twist to shoot conicals" ... "you can't shoot more than 'X' grains without blowing the skirt on a Minie" regularly appear. They are read, taken at face value, and passed on as wisdom. It's on the internet, therefore it must be true! :thumbsup:

David
 
I have an EOA 3 band P53 Enfield that IIRC shoots minie balls up to about 500 grains just fine ahead of 60 grains of 2F powder. The twist rate on this gun is 1 turn in 74". You have to remember a minie is a weight ford projectile whereas a maxi ball is not.
 
Hello from Germany! I asked the same question a while ago because I wanted to shoot maxiballs out of my .45er Deerhunter with 1 in 66" ROT. Meanwhile I tested around with 240 grs Maxis (.452 Dia) and 90 grs Wano PP. These combi makes good grouping. It is essential that the Maxi is not much longer than a RB. Mine are about 1.5x longer and work real well out to 75 m. Enough for hunting and target practice. See my hunting report in the ML huntin section.

Regards

Kirrmeister
 
Should be pretty easy these days to figure the twist for a conical because we can just punch up specs on 1800's BP cartidge rifles with various bullet diameters and weights. I think the rifle manufacturers mostly kept the twists as slow as they could get by with.
 
"Anyone? I'll even settle for theory."


People are more interested in using traditional projectiles now?
 
Questions: What calibers? What Rate of Twist? What groove depth? Which Minie used? How much did the minie weigh? How wide was the skirt at that the back/bottom of the minie? How much was the powder charge used? How were the minie's sized to the barrels? At what distance were shooting all these minies back then?

Because of the nature of the minie, it was studied quite a lot when first used in the 19th century, and again in the mid-20th century when these kinds of guns and bullets were replicated for re-enacting prior wars. Today, you can still find fine made rifles, and molds for the minie, and sizing dies that marry the bullet to these rifles well enough to give very fine accuracy.

The only problem I have ever seen or heard talked about is the skirts breaking when powder charges exceed 60 grains of FFFg powder, and that relates to a particular cast bullet with a thin skirt.

In the last 50 years, that problem has been largely solved, with molds made to produce minies with thicker skirts. The problem is still discussed because there are now so many replicas in those calibers being dusted off as the guns are passed from father to son, or grandfathers to grandsons, and the younger generation does not know much about the guns or the bullets.

Just remember that Battle Tactics at the time the minie was first introduces to military firearms still followed the Napoleonic traditions of lines of troops facing each other at 50 yds, and firing volleys of shots at each other. ( Musket tactics) Because of the death tolls created by rifled guns shooting minies, and the increase in the severely wounded coming off these battlefields, The Army generals were forced to change their tactics, by having their men shoot from cover. The Generals still like those bayonet charges. What's the point of having that great looking sword on your belt if you can't lead a bayonet charge??? And that still had men running towards enemy ranks concealed and shooting at them with accurate rifles and heavy minies, so the death tolls took a while before they began to drop. More soldiers died of infections and diseases acquired in camps due to poor sanitation, during our Civil War than from battle wounds. But that fact is not because the Generals didn't try harder to kill more men in battles.

I have seen some rifles shooting some minies do some extra-ordinary shooting at long ranges. But I have also seen guns with other minies that could hardly put the ball on a 2 ft.square piece of paper at 50 yds.

I don't think there is anything more mythical about finding accuracy with a gun shooting minies than any other gun shooting any other kind of projectile. My Hodgdon Data Manual No.23, dating back to 1978, lists loads for a variety of "mini-balls", weighing from 315 grains up to 570 grains, and in two different diameters: .575", and .577".

If the barrel is in good condition, and you have the right bullet diameter, and powder charge, there is no reason to expect the gun NOT to shoot well. Now, whether the shooter can hit anything with that gun is another matter. :thumbsup:
 
kanati said:
When we shot ML'ers a long time ago we shot everything out of them, patchball, maxi's minies, they all seemed to shoot fine. Douglas, Pedersoli CVA T/C etc barrels.

Getting back in to it now, and now this is supposedly a big no-no. What is the reasoning for this?

We shot minies (My favorite projectile) out of all different barrels, they always shot hard and accurate, never had any issues.

-Ron

I have had no trouble shooting Minie's out of my .58 TGA double rifle. My rifle likes the 577611 (.557 dia.) "Improved Minie", have shot it up to 140 gr, FFg. At that charge, have had no problems with the skirt. A more reasonable charge is 110 gr. FFg and is very accurate.

I am not sure why the skirt problem unless in some cases, if one's Minie is too small for that particular bore, it would cause blow-by. The hollow base is designed to expand and needs to be only sligthly smaller than the bore.
 
-Ron[/quote]


I am not sure why the skirt problem unless in some cases, if one's Minie is too small for that particular bore, it would cause blow-by. The hollow base is designed to expand and needs to be only sligthly smaller than the bore.[/quote]

I think a lot of the problem is that some casters are pouring Minies with the lead too cold and there are seams and wrinkles in the skirt. These amount to score marks and if a heavy enough load is used the skirt breaks when suddenly expanded against the bore, especially if there is a lot of windage. Now, that's just my theory, but it's the only explanation I have. When I cast Minies, that's the first thing I look for. If the skirt is wrinkled or has any other flaws, it goes in the scrap heap to be re-melted. I then look for a void at the top of the base. I look for a nose void when I break the sprue. If it passes, it goes to the scale.

Zonie made a good point earlier. Deep rifling is not a friend to the Minie. It was designed (back in 1854) to be used with progressive depth rifling. The rifling adopted was deep at the breech (.015 inch), but tapered to .005 inch at the muzzle. The part of the skirt that had obdurated into the grooves was squeezed as it travelled down the barrel. It was also found that a twist of 1 turn in 6 feet was the optimum twist, although it's been found that 1 turn in 4 feet will work quite well for some Minies. The grooves adopted for the new rifle-musket were also wide and equal in width to the lands and only 3 in number. Now that was intended for use with the 500 gr. Burton Minie. Several different designs have appeared over the years and different rifling rates and depths work well with them. But unless a Minie is swaged or otherwise altered to have a mechanical fit with the rifling so as to improve sealing and expansion, I don't believe you can get the best performance out of it in a barrel with very deep rifling.
 
I've made mini's and molds for casting them for over twenty years and have found that using a sizing die improves performance considerably. I size mine to .001 under the lands diameter. Also the mini's made from pure lead perform better than those with arsenic (melted down shot ), or antimony (most type alloys ) in the alloy.It has been my experience that they work well in rifles up to .005 deep rifling, But even with a fiber over powder wad they don't work well in deeper rifling (.010 t0 .012 ).The origional enfield mini's had a wooden plug (later replaced with a clay plug) to aid in the expansion of the skirt.I have found a soft fiber or soft leather over powder wad helps with the sealing of the minis skirt.
 

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